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[Music]

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all right welcome back to uap studies

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podcast my name is louis borges joining

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me as always my good friend and astute

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co-host jason gilmet how are you buddy

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i'm doing very good today i'm excited

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about our guest uh this is going to be a

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great episode for sure a very well-known

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name and uh a man who we are humbled by

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i mean he's had two full-time careers

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and two very complex industries

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he's one of the few people from the air

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force that's ever gone on the record and

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discussed ufos or uap phenomena or

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anything like that uh you know many many

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books that he's written i mean estimate

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was 80 to 100 books i think i've read

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that the gentleman wrote so that doesn't

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include you know over 200 magazine

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articles television appearances podcasts

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and uh he joins us here today so uh warm

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welcome to our guest mr kevin d randall

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oh thank you i'm glad to have an

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opportunity chat with you guys today

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yeah it's our pleasure for sure so uh

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for the few people that may not be too

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familiar with you uh as you know what

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your career was and everything else

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maybe tell us a bit about uh the young

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kevin randle and what got you into the

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military some of your exploits there and

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uh what led that into your current uh uh

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illustrious resume of uh accolades

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well if you say what got me into the

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military was a fear of the draft

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[Laughter]

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uh

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i guess it gives my age away and it's no

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no secret i'm getting

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to be old and crotchety

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um

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once i graduated from high school i had

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no plans to go to college i didn't think

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we had the money to go to college and

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the only outlet was well join the army

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because if i joined the army i could

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kind of select

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the

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army

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was training

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high school graduates

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to fly helicopters and i thought well

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that's much better than learning how to

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drive a truck or

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many of the other things that the army

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has you do so i went to uh i signed up

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to join the army

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um to go to flight school and was

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successful with that but of course at

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the time i don't think many people were

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flunking out of the flight school they

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needed helicopters very badly

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so i did that i went to vietnam in

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september of 1968 returned in september

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of 1969 i was a

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aircraft commander flew missions all

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kinds of missions you name a mission the

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helicopters were involved with and i

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probably flew at one time or another

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including firefly which our unit didn't

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do but a friend of mine from flight

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school we had to evacuate our aircraft

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and he happened to be with this other

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unit the dragons and he was flying

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firefly so you want to fly with us

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tonight and i stupidly said sure why not

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so we went out and did that mission as

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well but

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uh spent four years in the army got out

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of the army with an idea now to go to

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college because

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i could afford to

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the air force then promised if i took

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rotc they would give me a jet to fly

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which i thought was a pretty good deal

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but i only had to take two years of rotc

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because i was prior service and since i

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had been a warrant officer

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i didn't have to go to their five-week

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summer

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camp for

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aspiring officers i guess so i just went

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through rotc graduated from that

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i was commissioned a second lieutenant

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and entered the air force

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spent the first part of the career as a

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public affairs officer

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was asked to be the general's aide for a

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period of time when his aide went on

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on leave and i think it was because of

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my military background the fact that i

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was a combat pilot

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and not everybody in the air force

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reserve had combat experience and that

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sort of thing so i was the general's

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aide for a while and once that ended

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and my

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time at the unit ended i was about to be

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discharged i was approached and said

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would you like to stay on the reserve

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side and i said sure what do you got and

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he said we can you can either be the

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general's aide or you can be an

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intelligence officer and i stupidly said

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well i'll take intelligence officer not

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realizing

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that the really important job was the

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general's aid because you learned so

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much about the workings of the military

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from being the general's aide i just

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i don't know i just didn't set right

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with me had i if i headed it over again

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yes i would be a general's aide and

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entered the reserve and spent um

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something like 10 12 years in the air

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force

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post on active dating reserve and then

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got out of that after 9 11

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i got into the iowa national guard so

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i'm back in the army now but as an

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intelligence officer and spent a year in

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iraq as an intelligence officer finally

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retired from the

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army in

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2009 as a

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lieutenant colonel

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college education i have a ba from the

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university of iowa i have an m.a in the

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art of military science from american

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military university and a

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master's degree in psychology and uh and

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phd in psychology from california coast

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university and people kind of make fun

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of that and i said yes it's an online

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school and it's not as prestigious as

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going to harvard

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but it is recognized as a legitimate

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degree so back off people

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um i also spent a lot of time writing

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books a friend of mine in rotc as a

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matter of fact

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uh bob cornett who just passed away just

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a couple months ago unfortunately

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um

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we were talking when they said well

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let's write a science fiction novel and

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we said oh and i said okay so let's do

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that he called me one day and we were

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going to meet for lunch and he says uh

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i've got about 10 pages of this book why

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don't you bring something down so i sat

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down and wrote about 10 pages and his

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was in third person and mine was in

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first person

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and we combined it and we ended up with

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five for first-person narrators in the

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story and some third-person stuff going

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on and the book eventually was published

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called seeds of doubt so

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i kind of

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started us on our

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science fiction writing career i've done

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a lot of articles on ufos for

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[Music]

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magazines in the 1970s there were

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six or seven magazines that had devoted

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to ufos

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truths flying saucers and ufos um

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argosys ufos saga's ufo report official

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ufo and they would

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they were paying enough money that it

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actually helped pay for my college

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tuition i say to i i say laughingly i

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had gone to college on a saga

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scholarship

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because every time the

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tuition was due i do an article for them

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and they would pay me and it came up ten

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dollars short of my tuition so

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i was able to pay my tuition that way

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so we

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did a lot of that writing writing was

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something that i always wanted to do

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and i remember as a very youngster i

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came home and told my mother that i was

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signed up to take a course in journalism

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and she said what is that and i said

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well i don't know what i think it has to

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do with writing not realizing exactly

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what what it had to do with it

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uh and so i i've been pursuing that as

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well

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the right science fiction was kind of a

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goal of mine so that when bob cornett

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kind of talked about it it was you know

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it struck home

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so we did that we wrote magazine

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articles on ufos i was probably the

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first person first civilian to get into

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project blue book files when they were

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released into public scrutiny and what

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happened was in rotc they would get

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these bulletins

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because it's an active duty

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assignment for the military people

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involved

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and one of them was that the project

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blue book files were now open for public

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scrutiny at the

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maxwell air force base so i called the

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editor

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at saga

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and they would always say well we'll get

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back to you we're too busy right now

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we'll get back to you he'll give you a

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call and it would be two or three days

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and i might get a call and i might not

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so i they said you want to leave a

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message and i said yeah tell them i can

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get the project blue book files

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and within 10 minutes

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i had a phone call not from the other i

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worked with but from his boss

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and he's saying well we need you to look

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at this we need you to look at that and

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i'm thinking i take it i have the

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assignment he said well yes of course so

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i went down to maxwell air force with

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bob cornett and we spent a week going

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through the project blue book files

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before they were redacted

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and the first thing we did was once we

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found out there was an index is we went

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through the index and wrote down the

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names of everybody involved in the

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unidentified sightings so we'd have that

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information and we did the photographic

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and we did some other stuff like that we

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uh photographed some of these files

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because we didn't have access to a copy

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machine to do it

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and then we did a number of articles

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about that as well so

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that all worked out very very well

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for us

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what is the unfortunate thing is there's

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a fellow named rob

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mercer

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in ohio

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and he was working with uh

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he was looking for ufo stuff online and

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looking at craigslist

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and somebody put a box of material from

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supposedly from project blue book

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and so he he said well i'll take a

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chance and he bought it and it turned

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out to be from project blue book and it

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led to a guy named carmen morano who

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i've had on my radio program

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about that because he was probably the

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last officer in charge of project blue

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book he kind of closed it out after

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quintanilla left

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and uh

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through a brilliant piece of detective

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where mercer got to this guy and found

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out he had additional information well

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what it turned out is he had a complete

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index with all the names in it so i work

280
00:09:26,150 --> 00:09:23,920
work went down the tube and now there's

281
00:09:27,509 --> 00:09:26,160
everybody can have a copy of all of this

282
00:09:29,030 --> 00:09:27,519
stuff with the names of the witnesses

283
00:09:30,070 --> 00:09:29,040
and i understand why the air force

284
00:09:31,509 --> 00:09:30,080
redacted them because when they

285
00:09:32,870 --> 00:09:31,519
conducted the investigation they

286
00:09:35,030 --> 00:09:32,880
promised the witnesses they wouldn't be

287
00:09:37,190 --> 00:09:35,040
revealed so they redacted the names they

288
00:09:39,350 --> 00:09:37,200
didn't do a very good job of it and the

289
00:09:41,269 --> 00:09:39,360
one that always cracked me up was in

290
00:09:43,030 --> 00:09:41,279
looking at the file for kenneth arnold's

291
00:09:44,630 --> 00:09:43,040
siding

292
00:09:48,470 --> 00:09:44,640
and they they even had gone to the point

293
00:09:50,630 --> 00:09:48,480
of redacting the ka in an interview

294
00:09:52,790 --> 00:09:50,640
in a transcript interview you know

295
00:09:54,230 --> 00:09:52,800
the officer's initials and then ka for

296
00:09:56,310 --> 00:09:54,240
kenneth arnold they've even retracted

297
00:09:58,630 --> 00:09:56,320
that and but one page

298
00:10:00,949 --> 00:09:58,640
in in the in the file somewhere in

299
00:10:03,030 --> 00:10:00,959
grease pencil somebody wrote in letters

300
00:10:06,630 --> 00:10:03,040
about a half an inch high a quarter of

301
00:10:08,630 --> 00:10:06,640
an inch high arnold siding so

302
00:10:09,829 --> 00:10:08,640
i i rarely went to a case where i

303
00:10:11,910 --> 00:10:09,839
couldn't find the names even though

304
00:10:13,430 --> 00:10:11,920
they'd attempted to redact them all so

305
00:10:15,750 --> 00:10:13,440
we we did all of that

306
00:10:18,069 --> 00:10:15,760
uh before we went on you guys wondered

307
00:10:19,509 --> 00:10:18,079
what got me involved in ufos and i i

308
00:10:21,509 --> 00:10:19,519
think the the answer to that is very

309
00:10:23,190 --> 00:10:21,519
simple it's my mother she had a very

310
00:10:24,710 --> 00:10:23,200
good interest in science fiction she

311
00:10:26,069 --> 00:10:24,720
enjoyed all these sorts of things when i

312
00:10:28,550 --> 00:10:26,079
was a little kid she took me to the

313
00:10:30,389 --> 00:10:28,560
movie earth versus the flying saucers

314
00:10:33,110 --> 00:10:30,399
and that kind of sparked my interest in

315
00:10:35,430 --> 00:10:33,120
the ufo end of it and so even even in

316
00:10:36,710 --> 00:10:35,440
high school i was reading books on ufo

317
00:10:37,590 --> 00:10:36,720
and i remember sitting in a study hall

318
00:10:39,750 --> 00:10:37,600
and getting yelled at because you're

319
00:10:41,190 --> 00:10:39,760
reading brad's tigers strangers in the

320
00:10:42,389 --> 00:10:41,200
sky

321
00:10:44,389 --> 00:10:42,399
and i became good friends with bad

322
00:10:47,350 --> 00:10:44,399
spreads tiger later on by the way which

323
00:10:49,670 --> 00:10:47,360
was kind of interesting but uh so i had

324
00:10:51,350 --> 00:10:49,680
a military career that spanned a tour in

325
00:10:53,190 --> 00:10:51,360
vietnam as a helicopter pilot an

326
00:10:55,430 --> 00:10:53,200
aircraft commander had a tour in iraq as

327
00:10:57,030 --> 00:10:55,440
an intelligence officer i spent some

328
00:10:58,710 --> 00:10:57,040
time in panama as an air force

329
00:11:01,350 --> 00:10:58,720
intelligence officer

330
00:11:03,430 --> 00:11:01,360
and so my career in the military was hit

331
00:11:05,910 --> 00:11:03,440
and miss come and go as as the mood

332
00:11:07,110 --> 00:11:05,920
moved me my writing career

333
00:11:10,310 --> 00:11:07,120
um

334
00:11:12,949 --> 00:11:10,320
went fairly well i did work in

335
00:11:15,350 --> 00:11:12,959
had a real job at one point until we

336
00:11:16,710 --> 00:11:15,360
sold and i say we bob cornett and i sold

337
00:11:19,030 --> 00:11:16,720
a couple of books

338
00:11:21,750 --> 00:11:19,040
um we had gone to science fiction

339
00:11:24,470 --> 00:11:21,760
conventions bob and i thinking that the

340
00:11:26,389 --> 00:11:24,480
editors for the the books the publishers

341
00:11:27,910 --> 00:11:26,399
of the books and the magazines

342
00:11:29,430 --> 00:11:27,920
attended the convention as well we

343
00:11:31,030 --> 00:11:29,440
thought we'd have a better shot of

344
00:11:32,630 --> 00:11:31,040
selling something to these guys if they

345
00:11:34,710 --> 00:11:32,640
knew who we were

346
00:11:36,470 --> 00:11:34,720
and so we went to the conventions and i

347
00:11:37,910 --> 00:11:36,480
got a call from a woman

348
00:11:39,509 --> 00:11:37,920
sharon jarvis

349
00:11:41,110 --> 00:11:39,519
who was setting up a

350
00:11:42,790 --> 00:11:41,120
an agency and she wanted to know if we

351
00:11:44,550 --> 00:11:42,800
would like representation and he said

352
00:11:45,910 --> 00:11:44,560
well that was one of the goals so we

353
00:11:48,310 --> 00:11:45,920
said sure

354
00:11:49,750 --> 00:11:48,320
and i got a call from her one day and

355
00:11:51,750 --> 00:11:49,760
she said

356
00:11:53,829 --> 00:11:51,760
can you write a book about

357
00:11:55,350 --> 00:11:53,839
the green berets in vietnam

358
00:11:56,470 --> 00:11:55,360
and i said of course

359
00:11:58,150 --> 00:11:56,480
and i'm thinking if you'd called and

360
00:11:59,990 --> 00:11:58,160
said can you write a book about nurses

361
00:12:01,030 --> 00:12:00,000
and hospitals my answer would have been

362
00:12:03,190 --> 00:12:01,040
of course

363
00:12:04,710 --> 00:12:03,200
because the goal was to write books

364
00:12:06,550 --> 00:12:04,720
and the fact it was

365
00:12:08,870 --> 00:12:06,560
you know i was as a vietnam veteran i

366
00:12:10,629 --> 00:12:08,880
had a more intimate knowledge than a lot

367
00:12:12,550 --> 00:12:10,639
of writers have on it because i spent a

368
00:12:14,230 --> 00:12:12,560
year there i did work with the green

369
00:12:15,590 --> 00:12:14,240
berets i was not a green break and i

370
00:12:16,629 --> 00:12:15,600
specified that specifically that i

371
00:12:18,790 --> 00:12:16,639
worked with them because that was part

372
00:12:19,829 --> 00:12:18,800
of our job as helicopter pilot

373
00:12:21,829 --> 00:12:19,839
so

374
00:12:23,509 --> 00:12:21,839
helping them

375
00:12:25,910 --> 00:12:23,519
in fact the first time we got shot down

376
00:12:30,389 --> 00:12:27,750
extracting a mic force

377
00:12:31,590 --> 00:12:30,399
for the uh special forces team at song

378
00:12:33,269 --> 00:12:31,600
bay and

379
00:12:35,670 --> 00:12:33,279
which is up on the uh

380
00:12:39,310 --> 00:12:35,680
three core two court border i did a i've

381
00:12:42,550 --> 00:12:40,470
vietnamgroundzero.blogspot.com the

382
00:12:46,230 --> 00:12:42,560
vietnam ground zero

383
00:12:48,550 --> 00:12:46,240
is all one word all lower case and i say

384
00:12:50,389 --> 00:12:48,560
this is my relatively true experiences

385
00:12:52,230 --> 00:12:50,399
in vietnam and the reason i say

386
00:12:54,069 --> 00:12:52,240
relatively true i had told people for

387
00:12:55,910 --> 00:12:54,079
years

388
00:12:57,269 --> 00:12:55,920
that we got the flight crews got

389
00:12:59,670 --> 00:12:57,279
scrambled in the middle of our

390
00:13:01,590 --> 00:12:59,680
thanksgiving dinner and we i'd left my

391
00:13:02,629 --> 00:13:01,600
tray actually in the serving line

392
00:13:03,910 --> 00:13:02,639
because the flight crews had been

393
00:13:06,470 --> 00:13:03,920
scrambled

394
00:13:08,710 --> 00:13:06,480
well as i was putting together the blog

395
00:13:10,389 --> 00:13:08,720
um i uh

396
00:13:11,910 --> 00:13:10,399
was looking at the letters i'd sent home

397
00:13:13,910 --> 00:13:11,920
my mother had saved all those and i have

398
00:13:15,110 --> 00:13:13,920
them now and it was talking about

399
00:13:17,350 --> 00:13:15,120
thanksgiving

400
00:13:19,190 --> 00:13:17,360
and we had actually not been at uh it

401
00:13:20,870 --> 00:13:19,200
kuchi at the time we were at tein in on

402
00:13:22,949 --> 00:13:20,880
some kind of mission and they promised

403
00:13:24,629 --> 00:13:22,959
us a meal which they made us pay for it

404
00:13:26,470 --> 00:13:24,639
was the first calf

405
00:13:28,389 --> 00:13:26,480
so we didn't get scrambled but there had

406
00:13:30,949 --> 00:13:28,399
been times when we were scrambled in the

407
00:13:32,629 --> 00:13:30,959
middle of lunch or dinner for for some

408
00:13:34,550 --> 00:13:32,639
mission and so it happened it just

409
00:13:36,069 --> 00:13:34,560
didn't happen on thanksgiving so that's

410
00:13:37,430 --> 00:13:36,079
why i was saying the relatively true

411
00:13:38,790 --> 00:13:37,440
story because i try to remember what i

412
00:13:39,750 --> 00:13:38,800
have i have the letters to back some of

413
00:13:42,949 --> 00:13:39,760
it up

414
00:13:45,110 --> 00:13:42,959
and uh work on it that way so that is a

415
00:13:46,790 --> 00:13:45,120
long-winded

416
00:13:48,550 --> 00:13:46,800
i guess introduction of my career by the

417
00:13:51,030 --> 00:13:48,560
way it's i i stopped counting the books

418
00:13:53,350 --> 00:13:51,040
at 125.

419
00:13:55,670 --> 00:13:53,360
we're over that um

420
00:13:58,230 --> 00:13:55,680
wikipedia says 80 and then under your

421
00:14:00,629 --> 00:13:58,240
biography it says a hundred both on the

422
00:14:02,470 --> 00:14:00,639
same site so they can't even keep track

423
00:14:04,150 --> 00:14:02,480
of how many books you've written well i

424
00:14:06,310 --> 00:14:04,160
stopped i stopped counting the latest

425
00:14:08,710 --> 00:14:06,320
book was is called understanding roswell

426
00:14:11,430 --> 00:14:08,720
which was uh done for the anniversary

427
00:14:14,069 --> 00:14:11,440
and i look at it as

428
00:14:16,710 --> 00:14:14,079
a kind of a cold case explanation of the

429
00:14:19,189 --> 00:14:16,720
roswell i left out the sensationalistic

430
00:14:21,829 --> 00:14:19,199
stuff that can't be verified kind of

431
00:14:23,430 --> 00:14:21,839
boiled it down to the the essence of the

432
00:14:24,870 --> 00:14:23,440
case

433
00:14:27,829 --> 00:14:24,880
everybody agrees something fell at

434
00:14:29,030 --> 00:14:27,839
roswell what was it is the question

435
00:14:31,670 --> 00:14:29,040
eliminated

436
00:14:33,269 --> 00:14:31,680
everything of a terrestrial nature

437
00:14:34,230 --> 00:14:33,279
there's backgrounds on some of the key

438
00:14:35,670 --> 00:14:34,240
people

439
00:14:37,269 --> 00:14:35,680
who they were what they did in the

440
00:14:39,189 --> 00:14:37,279
military what happened to them after

441
00:14:41,910 --> 00:14:39,199
they left roswell

442
00:14:44,470 --> 00:14:41,920
one of the guys i think payne jennings

443
00:14:47,030 --> 00:14:44,480
was killed in korea testing some kind of

444
00:14:49,030 --> 00:14:47,040
super bomb and that detonated early and

445
00:14:51,990 --> 00:14:49,040
exploded the b-29 and killed everybody

446
00:14:53,430 --> 00:14:52,000
on board another guy uh

447
00:14:55,189 --> 00:14:53,440
disappeared in the atlantic ocean i

448
00:14:56,550 --> 00:14:55,199
think they were talking about how he had

449
00:14:57,990 --> 00:14:56,560
vanished in the bermuda triangle but

450
00:15:00,150 --> 00:14:58,000
they were way north of the

451
00:15:01,670 --> 00:15:00,160
bermuda triangle so it really doesn't

452
00:15:03,350 --> 00:15:01,680
count you know and

453
00:15:05,110 --> 00:15:03,360
and that sort of thing but it looks at

454
00:15:07,590 --> 00:15:05,120
the witnesses it looks at what they said

455
00:15:09,110 --> 00:15:07,600
there's a lot of transcripts in it of

456
00:15:11,110 --> 00:15:09,120
interviews with it you can see exactly

457
00:15:13,030 --> 00:15:11,120
what they said to me or to don schmidt

458
00:15:14,790 --> 00:15:13,040
and me as we uh

459
00:15:16,710 --> 00:15:14,800
did the investigation like

460
00:15:18,870 --> 00:15:16,720
the transcript with bill brazel for

461
00:15:21,350 --> 00:15:18,880
example he was the son of the man who

462
00:15:23,990 --> 00:15:21,360
found the original debris so all that

463
00:15:25,509 --> 00:15:24,000
kind of stuff in the book

464
00:15:27,590 --> 00:15:25,519
and then i did a book on level land

465
00:15:29,430 --> 00:15:27,600
which i think is the number two

466
00:15:30,949 --> 00:15:29,440
uh ufo sighting we need to look at and

467
00:15:33,430 --> 00:15:30,959
that was the sightings around levelland

468
00:15:34,949 --> 00:15:33,440
texas in 1957 where

469
00:15:37,030 --> 00:15:34,959
a great number of people reported their

470
00:15:38,629 --> 00:15:37,040
car started close approaching the uf

471
00:15:40,310 --> 00:15:38,639
when it period about ten

472
00:15:43,030 --> 00:15:40,320
about two or three hours and that sort

473
00:15:47,030 --> 00:15:43,040
of thing so yeah that's

474
00:15:48,550 --> 00:15:47,040
where we are i have not um i i quit my

475
00:15:50,870 --> 00:15:48,560
real job

476
00:15:52,949 --> 00:15:50,880
and became a writer full-time i think in

477
00:15:56,389 --> 00:15:52,959
1980

478
00:15:59,269 --> 00:15:56,399
84 i think 84.85 so i've been doing that

479
00:16:01,990 --> 00:15:59,279
and of course i got back into the

480
00:16:03,749 --> 00:16:02,000
military after 9 11 but that was in the

481
00:16:06,069 --> 00:16:03,759
national guard

482
00:16:08,310 --> 00:16:06,079
so that was uh they said don't worry

483
00:16:10,629 --> 00:16:08,320
this unit is never deployed three months

484
00:16:12,629 --> 00:16:10,639
later we were gone

485
00:16:13,670 --> 00:16:12,639
yeah isn't that the way it always works

486
00:16:15,509 --> 00:16:13,680
yeah

487
00:16:17,749 --> 00:16:15,519
well and then this and the funny thing

488
00:16:20,069 --> 00:16:17,759
at one point the iowa national guard had

489
00:16:22,790 --> 00:16:20,079
per capita more people deployed than

490
00:16:25,269 --> 00:16:22,800
anybody else any other national guard

491
00:16:27,350 --> 00:16:25,279
unit or a state in the

492
00:16:29,030 --> 00:16:27,360
in the united states we've we had like

493
00:16:30,870 --> 00:16:29,040
three battalions left in the state of

494
00:16:32,949 --> 00:16:30,880
iowa and everybody else was in iraq you

495
00:16:35,509 --> 00:16:32,959
know we're always running into people we

496
00:16:37,430 --> 00:16:35,519
knew from other units in iraq

497
00:16:39,189 --> 00:16:37,440
so there you go

498
00:16:42,069 --> 00:16:39,199
so since it's the uh

499
00:16:45,269 --> 00:16:42,079
75th anniversary of roswell and there's

500
00:16:47,829 --> 00:16:45,279
some people that listen to this podcast

501
00:16:49,749 --> 00:16:47,839
and they're just learning about ufology

502
00:16:51,189 --> 00:16:49,759
now they're learning about some of these

503
00:16:53,350 --> 00:16:51,199
cases now

504
00:16:55,749 --> 00:16:53,360
can we just brush up just a little bit

505
00:16:58,389 --> 00:16:55,759
on roswell just for those that are sort

506
00:17:00,230 --> 00:16:58,399
of learning about it for the first time

507
00:17:02,069 --> 00:17:00,240
just what the incident was just really

508
00:17:08,230 --> 00:17:02,079
briefly

509
00:17:09,350 --> 00:17:08,240
sir at your pace sir

510
00:17:10,949 --> 00:17:09,360
uh

511
00:17:12,630 --> 00:17:10,959
in essence something crashed in roswell

512
00:17:15,429 --> 00:17:12,640
new mexico in

513
00:17:16,390 --> 00:17:15,439
in july of 1947 the military recovered

514
00:17:19,429 --> 00:17:16,400
it

515
00:17:22,870 --> 00:17:19,439
uh they classified everything

516
00:17:23,909 --> 00:17:22,880
what we had done don schmidt and i was

517
00:17:25,829 --> 00:17:23,919
sent down there by the center for

518
00:17:27,350 --> 00:17:25,839
universal studies in 1989 we're going to

519
00:17:28,470 --> 00:17:27,360
look into this thing

520
00:17:29,909 --> 00:17:28,480
we believe it was going to be a weather

521
00:17:31,270 --> 00:17:29,919
balloon of some kind because that was

522
00:17:33,029 --> 00:17:31,280
the initial

523
00:17:33,990 --> 00:17:33,039
initial thing what happened was

524
00:17:36,310 --> 00:17:34,000
um

525
00:17:37,669 --> 00:17:36,320
the men at roswell the 509th bomb group

526
00:17:39,029 --> 00:17:37,679
colonel blanchard being the commanding

527
00:17:40,630 --> 00:17:39,039
officer now so they had captured a

528
00:17:42,950 --> 00:17:40,640
flying saucer on the ranch in roswell

529
00:17:44,390 --> 00:17:42,960
region three hours later general raymie

530
00:17:46,070 --> 00:17:44,400
at the eighth air force the next higher

531
00:17:47,590 --> 00:17:46,080
headquarters from the 509 said no no

532
00:17:49,990 --> 00:17:47,600
it's just a weather balloon

533
00:17:52,549 --> 00:17:50,000
and that the story died in 1947 at that

534
00:17:54,630 --> 00:17:52,559
point and jesse marcel who was the air

535
00:17:56,710 --> 00:17:54,640
intelligence officer in roswell

536
00:17:58,630 --> 00:17:56,720
in 1978

537
00:18:00,230 --> 00:17:58,640
was telling his ham radio buddies about

538
00:18:01,990 --> 00:18:00,240
how he'd pick up pieces of a flying

539
00:18:03,510 --> 00:18:02,000
saucer and stan friedman was doing an

540
00:18:05,350 --> 00:18:03,520
interview

541
00:18:06,789 --> 00:18:05,360
in i think new orleans

542
00:18:08,150 --> 00:18:06,799
and the station manager says you know

543
00:18:10,150 --> 00:18:08,160
there's a guy here you need to talk to

544
00:18:11,750 --> 00:18:10,160
jesse marcel marcel living in houma

545
00:18:12,630 --> 00:18:11,760
louisiana

546
00:18:17,909 --> 00:18:12,640
and

547
00:18:20,789 --> 00:18:17,919
nothing of it

548
00:18:22,390 --> 00:18:20,799
and then um talking to somebody else

549
00:18:23,830 --> 00:18:22,400
friedman got a whole

550
00:18:24,870 --> 00:18:23,840
realized there was more to the story but

551
00:18:26,710 --> 00:18:24,880
they didn't know where to go with it

552
00:18:28,470 --> 00:18:26,720
because marcel couldn't remember exactly

553
00:18:30,470 --> 00:18:28,480
when it was all of this

554
00:18:32,789 --> 00:18:30,480
bill moore was doing research and he was

555
00:18:34,070 --> 00:18:32,799
reading newspapers from 1947 and if you

556
00:18:36,390 --> 00:18:34,080
do that

557
00:18:38,549 --> 00:18:36,400
um kenneth arnold of course made the

558
00:18:42,270 --> 00:18:38,559
sighting that kind of sparked the united

559
00:18:43,909 --> 00:18:42,280
states interest in this on june 24th

560
00:18:45,510 --> 00:18:43,919
1947

561
00:18:46,950 --> 00:18:45,520
and about two weeks later there were all

562
00:18:47,750 --> 00:18:46,960
these stories in the newspapers about

563
00:18:50,070 --> 00:18:47,760
the

564
00:18:52,630 --> 00:18:50,080
crash and roswell and jesse marcel's

565
00:18:55,669 --> 00:18:52,640
picture appeared in the newspapers

566
00:18:57,110 --> 00:18:55,679
so moore realized well now we know when

567
00:18:58,789 --> 00:18:57,120
it took place and what he was talking

568
00:19:00,549 --> 00:18:58,799
about and friedman got back in touch

569
00:19:02,310 --> 00:19:00,559
with him and and brought in len

570
00:19:04,549 --> 00:19:02,320
stringfield i believe

571
00:19:06,390 --> 00:19:04,559
who interviewed them and the whole of

572
00:19:08,390 --> 00:19:06,400
the roswell case kind of mushroomed from

573
00:19:09,750 --> 00:19:08,400
that because we now realize there was

574
00:19:11,590 --> 00:19:09,760
something more to it than just a weather

575
00:19:15,750 --> 00:19:11,600
balloon

576
00:19:17,350 --> 00:19:15,760
don and i had entered the investigation

577
00:19:19,510 --> 00:19:17,360
with an idea to

578
00:19:21,590 --> 00:19:19,520
go to roswell interview the witnesses

579
00:19:22,789 --> 00:19:21,600
and we would determine what it was and

580
00:19:24,630 --> 00:19:22,799
it wouldn't be the first time we'd

581
00:19:27,110 --> 00:19:24,640
actually found a solution to a case that

582
00:19:28,630 --> 00:19:27,120
seemed somewhat

583
00:19:29,830 --> 00:19:28,640
mysterious

584
00:19:32,070 --> 00:19:29,840
we got down there and we're going to

585
00:19:35,990 --> 00:19:32,080
talk to frank joyce who was a reporter

586
00:19:38,710 --> 00:19:36,000
from kgfl radio and roswell at the time

587
00:19:41,350 --> 00:19:38,720
a reporter and announcer i should say

588
00:19:43,350 --> 00:19:41,360
and uh we got to albuquerque where he

589
00:19:44,310 --> 00:19:43,360
lived and he said he was ill he couldn't

590
00:19:45,590 --> 00:19:44,320
meet us

591
00:19:47,270 --> 00:19:45,600
okay

592
00:19:49,029 --> 00:19:47,280
and we had a meeting with a group in

593
00:19:51,190 --> 00:19:49,039
albuquerque and they turned out to be

594
00:19:52,789 --> 00:19:51,200
way into the woo-woo stuff

595
00:19:55,669 --> 00:19:52,799
um for

596
00:19:57,029 --> 00:19:55,679
far into the new age and they were of no

597
00:19:58,549 --> 00:19:57,039
value to us

598
00:20:00,870 --> 00:19:58,559
got down to roswell we're going to talk

599
00:20:02,310 --> 00:20:00,880
to cliff stone who supposedly knew a lot

600
00:20:03,510 --> 00:20:02,320
about this and cliffstone's well i don't

601
00:20:05,029 --> 00:20:03,520
want you to come to my house it's

602
00:20:07,669 --> 00:20:05,039
meeting the burger king

603
00:20:10,230 --> 00:20:07,679
okay he shows up in his uniform because

604
00:20:12,149 --> 00:20:10,240
he's assigned to the new mexico military

605
00:20:13,350 --> 00:20:12,159
institute there in roswell

606
00:20:15,510 --> 00:20:13,360
as a

607
00:20:17,590 --> 00:20:15,520
alert typist but he shows up in his and

608
00:20:19,270 --> 00:20:17,600
that's an army installation there's

609
00:20:21,510 --> 00:20:19,280
active duty army personnel involved in

610
00:20:23,110 --> 00:20:21,520
it he shows up in his uniform i don't

611
00:20:24,470 --> 00:20:23,120
know this guy's a yo-yo

612
00:20:26,149 --> 00:20:24,480
and he didn't want to go to his house

613
00:20:28,310 --> 00:20:26,159
his address isn't a phone book for

614
00:20:29,909 --> 00:20:28,320
crying out

615
00:20:31,909 --> 00:20:29,919
and the reason i remember is it's on

616
00:20:33,590 --> 00:20:31,919
tilden street and remember the reason i

617
00:20:35,510 --> 00:20:33,600
remember that is of course the

618
00:20:37,830 --> 00:20:35,520
controversy over president tilden do you

619
00:20:40,149 --> 00:20:37,840
remember him of him you know from was it

620
00:20:41,990 --> 00:20:40,159
1876 election where they had two sets of

621
00:20:43,190 --> 00:20:42,000
electors sent from three states and we

622
00:20:45,430 --> 00:20:43,200
have this big

623
00:20:46,830 --> 00:20:45,440
thing going on now about

624
00:20:50,390 --> 00:20:46,840
electors being

625
00:20:52,230 --> 00:20:50,400
uh harassed and all that so we in 1876

626
00:20:54,310 --> 00:20:52,240
we had all of that going on and there

627
00:20:56,390 --> 00:20:54,320
were two sets of electors and they they

628
00:20:59,029 --> 00:20:56,400
voted for hayes as opposed to tilden so

629
00:21:01,270 --> 00:20:59,039
he lost the

630
00:21:03,190 --> 00:21:01,280
electoral college by a single vote hayes

631
00:21:04,230 --> 00:21:03,200
became president until it did a little

632
00:21:06,149 --> 00:21:04,240
bit of

633
00:21:08,310 --> 00:21:06,159
history of no relevance to anybody but

634
00:21:10,710 --> 00:21:08,320
me apparently

635
00:21:12,149 --> 00:21:10,720
but uh so we and finally we went to his

636
00:21:13,750 --> 00:21:12,159
house and we're sitting in his house and

637
00:21:14,950 --> 00:21:13,760
he said excuse me and he goes outside

638
00:21:17,190 --> 00:21:14,960
and he comes back and he's carrying a

639
00:21:18,710 --> 00:21:17,200
folder that says top secret on it and he

640
00:21:19,830 --> 00:21:18,720
goes off into his bedroom and i leaned

641
00:21:21,909 --> 00:21:19,840
over and said they're done if that's the

642
00:21:24,390 --> 00:21:21,919
top secret document he's going to jail

643
00:21:25,669 --> 00:21:24,400
unless he's got a vault in his bedroom

644
00:21:27,590 --> 00:21:25,679
which of course he didn't because we

645
00:21:29,270 --> 00:21:27,600
eventually got in it was his office it

646
00:21:31,350 --> 00:21:29,280
turned out and we eventually got in

647
00:21:34,789 --> 00:21:31,360
there and saw there was no vault

648
00:21:35,590 --> 00:21:34,799
uh and he's lecturing us on ufos and he

649
00:21:37,190 --> 00:21:35,600
says

650
00:21:38,950 --> 00:21:37,200
i've got a document here from the

651
00:21:41,029 --> 00:21:38,960
chilean air force saying that they uh

652
00:21:42,789 --> 00:21:41,039
intercepted a ufo and fired on it and

653
00:21:44,390 --> 00:21:42,799
hid it and it there was no results and

654
00:21:45,750 --> 00:21:44,400
he handed the document to me and i read

655
00:21:46,710 --> 00:21:45,760
it and he said well it doesn't say that

656
00:21:48,630 --> 00:21:46,720
at all

657
00:21:50,390 --> 00:21:48,640
when it says the chilean air force

658
00:21:51,590 --> 00:21:50,400
attempted an intercept and fired without

659
00:21:53,750 --> 00:21:51,600
results didn't say anything about

660
00:21:56,390 --> 00:21:53,760
hitting it could have missed for crying

661
00:21:57,990 --> 00:21:56,400
out loud so that didn't work out

662
00:21:59,510 --> 00:21:58,000
so i'm thinking this is a bust we're not

663
00:22:02,310 --> 00:21:59,520
getting anywhere and the last interview

664
00:22:04,070 --> 00:22:02,320
was bill brazley so we go to carrozzo

665
00:22:05,830 --> 00:22:04,080
new mexico to meet with bill brazel we

666
00:22:07,029 --> 00:22:05,840
sit down with him

667
00:22:09,029 --> 00:22:07,039
and um

668
00:22:11,110 --> 00:22:09,039
we chatted for a moment and then he says

669
00:22:12,870 --> 00:22:11,120
my dad found this thing

670
00:22:14,310 --> 00:22:12,880
i'm recording the conversation and i

671
00:22:15,750 --> 00:22:14,320
still have the tape

672
00:22:16,870 --> 00:22:15,760
and he's telling us all this stuff about

673
00:22:18,470 --> 00:22:16,880
what he'd seen and what he'd done and

674
00:22:19,830 --> 00:22:18,480
how he'd been involved

675
00:22:21,510 --> 00:22:19,840
and i realized there was much more to

676
00:22:24,390 --> 00:22:21,520
the story i mean god realized it is too

677
00:22:26,149 --> 00:22:24,400
of course so we came back subsequent

678
00:22:28,070 --> 00:22:26,159
times

679
00:22:30,710 --> 00:22:28,080
we talked to family members the

680
00:22:33,029 --> 00:22:30,720
sheriff's office we looked into all

681
00:22:34,870 --> 00:22:33,039
sorts of alternative explanations we

682
00:22:36,149 --> 00:22:34,880
spent time at white sands missile range

683
00:22:37,430 --> 00:22:36,159
looking for something there that had

684
00:22:39,190 --> 00:22:37,440
gone wrong

685
00:22:40,710 --> 00:22:39,200
we looked at experimental aircraft and

686
00:22:42,549 --> 00:22:40,720
aircraft accidents and all of this we

687
00:22:44,230 --> 00:22:42,559
could find nothing that explained what

688
00:22:45,990 --> 00:22:44,240
philip roswell and as i said everybody

689
00:22:47,750 --> 00:22:46,000
agrees something fell

690
00:22:49,669 --> 00:22:47,760
talking to bill brazel he talked about

691
00:22:51,350 --> 00:22:49,679
this debris

692
00:22:53,750 --> 00:22:51,360
he talked about something he described

693
00:22:55,510 --> 00:22:53,760
as monofilament fishing line

694
00:22:56,710 --> 00:22:55,520
that you would shine a light in one end

695
00:22:58,149 --> 00:22:56,720
and it would come out the other well

696
00:22:59,190 --> 00:22:58,159
obviously he's talking about fiber

697
00:23:01,669 --> 00:22:59,200
optics

698
00:23:04,630 --> 00:23:01,679
he was talking about this

699
00:23:06,070 --> 00:23:04,640
lead foil or tin foil type material very

700
00:23:07,270 --> 00:23:06,080
lightweight you could crumple it in your

701
00:23:08,630 --> 00:23:07,280
hand but when you dropped it would

702
00:23:10,549 --> 00:23:08,640
unfold itself and go back to its

703
00:23:11,909 --> 00:23:10,559
original shape well we still have

704
00:23:13,270 --> 00:23:11,919
nothing like that

705
00:23:14,549 --> 00:23:13,280
he talked about the third piece of

706
00:23:16,789 --> 00:23:14,559
debris being

707
00:23:18,390 --> 00:23:16,799
light like balsa wood extremely but

708
00:23:20,070 --> 00:23:18,400
extremely tough he said that

709
00:23:21,510 --> 00:23:20,080
he tried to whittle on it with his

710
00:23:23,590 --> 00:23:21,520
pocket knife which he'd used to cut

711
00:23:24,549 --> 00:23:23,600
barbed wire for crying out loud because

712
00:23:26,070 --> 00:23:24,559
he wanted to see if there was any

713
00:23:27,909 --> 00:23:26,080
stratification there he couldn't even

714
00:23:30,230 --> 00:23:27,919
get a sliver so it was that tough light

715
00:23:31,190 --> 00:23:30,240
like ball so good but it but extremely

716
00:23:32,789 --> 00:23:31,200
tough

717
00:23:34,549 --> 00:23:32,799
well now we've got a guy who handled the

718
00:23:37,190 --> 00:23:34,559
braid it clearly comes from nothing that

719
00:23:38,870 --> 00:23:37,200
we can explain

720
00:23:40,710 --> 00:23:38,880
so we looked we looked into that we got

721
00:23:42,710 --> 00:23:40,720
more and more information about the

722
00:23:44,549 --> 00:23:42,720
roswell case we talked to

723
00:23:47,029 --> 00:23:44,559
literally dozens of people some of them

724
00:23:49,269 --> 00:23:47,039
turned out to be yo-yos

725
00:23:53,110 --> 00:23:51,029
our conclusion

726
00:23:54,230 --> 00:23:53,120
i think don leads more heavily than i do

727
00:23:55,830 --> 00:23:54,240
but our conclusion is it's

728
00:23:57,750 --> 00:23:55,840
extraterrestrial

729
00:24:00,070 --> 00:23:57,760
uh the provost marshall

730
00:24:02,230 --> 00:24:00,080
edwin easley provost marshall being like

731
00:24:04,149 --> 00:24:02,240
the chief of police

732
00:24:05,590 --> 00:24:04,159
at the base major edwin easley retired

733
00:24:06,549 --> 00:24:05,600
as a colonel

734
00:24:10,310 --> 00:24:06,559
um

735
00:24:11,350 --> 00:24:10,320
repeatedly he couldn't answer some of my

736
00:24:12,549 --> 00:24:11,360
questions because he'd been sworn to

737
00:24:14,470 --> 00:24:12,559
secrecy

738
00:24:15,909 --> 00:24:14,480
tried to help us as best he could he

739
00:24:18,149 --> 00:24:15,919
told one thing he told us everybody said

740
00:24:19,430 --> 00:24:18,159
well mac razzle been held in jail which

741
00:24:21,909 --> 00:24:19,440
would have been the stockade of course

742
00:24:23,750 --> 00:24:21,919
at the military installation

743
00:24:26,070 --> 00:24:23,760
and i asked easily about them he said no

744
00:24:27,029 --> 00:24:26,080
we we had him in the guest house well if

745
00:24:28,549 --> 00:24:27,039
there's a guard on the door and you're

746
00:24:30,710 --> 00:24:28,559
not allowed to leave it's really kind of

747
00:24:33,350 --> 00:24:30,720
the same thing as being in jail although

748
00:24:34,789 --> 00:24:33,360
much nicer accommodations

749
00:24:36,630 --> 00:24:34,799
uh i went we talked to a number of

750
00:24:38,470 --> 00:24:36,640
people who remembered mac brazil

751
00:24:39,909 --> 00:24:38,480
complaining about being held in jail the

752
00:24:43,430 --> 00:24:39,919
the proctors for example and the

753
00:24:45,350 --> 00:24:43,440
stricklands to name two two families

754
00:24:46,470 --> 00:24:45,360
he'd talked to two ranchers out of that

755
00:24:49,110 --> 00:24:46,480
area

756
00:24:50,789 --> 00:24:49,120
um so bill brazel

757
00:24:52,149 --> 00:24:50,799
was talking to us about what he'd seen

758
00:24:53,669 --> 00:24:52,159
what his father done he'd shown him the

759
00:24:55,029 --> 00:24:53,679
debris he'd found and they said well

760
00:24:55,990 --> 00:24:55,039
that sounds like some of the debris i

761
00:24:57,269 --> 00:24:56,000
found

762
00:24:59,830 --> 00:24:57,279
interesting thing in the book

763
00:25:03,269 --> 00:24:59,840
understanding roswell and i realized

764
00:25:07,909 --> 00:25:05,590
razzle went mac brazil went into the

765
00:25:09,909 --> 00:25:07,919
sheriff's office probably on sunday july

766
00:25:11,590 --> 00:25:09,919
6 1947

767
00:25:14,149 --> 00:25:11,600
to find out who's going to clean up the

768
00:25:16,870 --> 00:25:14,159
mess on his ranch with all this debris

769
00:25:18,149 --> 00:25:16,880
in the field

770
00:25:21,909 --> 00:25:18,159
and

771
00:25:23,269 --> 00:25:21,919
know this because phyllis mcguire the

772
00:25:24,310 --> 00:25:23,279
daughter of the

773
00:25:26,070 --> 00:25:24,320
sheriff

774
00:25:27,029 --> 00:25:26,080
the family lived above the jail at that

775
00:25:28,710 --> 00:25:27,039
time

776
00:25:30,230 --> 00:25:28,720
and so the the family was always in and

777
00:25:31,350 --> 00:25:30,240
out of jail so she was there when brazil

778
00:25:33,029 --> 00:25:31,360
showed up

779
00:25:34,390 --> 00:25:33,039
and she told us that yeah he had samples

780
00:25:36,470 --> 00:25:34,400
of the debris

781
00:25:37,430 --> 00:25:36,480
well they call out to the the air force

782
00:25:40,789 --> 00:25:37,440
base

783
00:25:43,350 --> 00:25:40,799
want to get technical

784
00:25:45,590 --> 00:25:43,360
and uh jesse marcel the air intelligence

785
00:25:47,350 --> 00:25:45,600
officer shows up now if this was

786
00:25:49,029 --> 00:25:47,360
remnants of a weather balloon and a ray

787
00:25:50,630 --> 00:25:49,039
wind target

788
00:25:52,310 --> 00:25:50,640
marcel would recognize it for what it

789
00:25:54,789 --> 00:25:52,320
was and said yes there's nothing here

790
00:25:56,630 --> 00:25:54,799
for us we don't care but instead he went

791
00:25:59,350 --> 00:25:56,640
back to the base and talked to colonel

792
00:26:01,830 --> 00:25:59,360
blanchard the his commanding officer

793
00:26:03,909 --> 00:26:01,840
blanchard said well there's the cia cia

794
00:26:05,669 --> 00:26:03,919
cic guy counterintelligence court guy

795
00:26:07,110 --> 00:26:05,679
who just decided take him out there with

796
00:26:08,070 --> 00:26:07,120
you so they go out to the ranch and see

797
00:26:10,230 --> 00:26:08,080
it

798
00:26:12,310 --> 00:26:10,240
now marcel describes the debris field

799
00:26:14,470 --> 00:26:12,320
much larger than cabot does cavett being

800
00:26:15,750 --> 00:26:14,480
the city guy

801
00:26:17,669 --> 00:26:15,760
um

802
00:26:19,510 --> 00:26:17,679
so we we've got various descriptions of

803
00:26:21,430 --> 00:26:19,520
this fellow named tommy tyree was a

804
00:26:22,390 --> 00:26:21,440
ranch hand worked sometimes for mac

805
00:26:23,990 --> 00:26:22,400
brazil

806
00:26:25,830 --> 00:26:24,000
talked about the size of the debris

807
00:26:28,230 --> 00:26:25,840
field and the reason that

808
00:26:30,149 --> 00:26:28,240
brazo was annoyed by it

809
00:26:31,909 --> 00:26:30,159
was the material was so densely packed

810
00:26:33,430 --> 00:26:31,919
they had to drive the sheep around it to

811
00:26:35,750 --> 00:26:33,440
get to the water

812
00:26:37,510 --> 00:26:35,760
because water is kind of a precious

813
00:26:39,190 --> 00:26:37,520
commodity in new mexico

814
00:26:41,110 --> 00:26:39,200
especially in the high desert so they

815
00:26:42,149 --> 00:26:41,120
had watering stations for the for the

816
00:26:43,430 --> 00:26:42,159
animals

817
00:26:44,950 --> 00:26:43,440
the other interesting thing people said

818
00:26:45,909 --> 00:26:44,960
well you and don didn't get to the right

819
00:26:47,590 --> 00:26:45,919
place

820
00:26:48,549 --> 00:26:47,600
would you like to see a picture of don

821
00:26:49,269 --> 00:26:48,559
schmidt

822
00:26:51,750 --> 00:26:49,279
and

823
00:26:53,669 --> 00:26:51,760
matt bill brazel leaning up against his

824
00:26:55,269 --> 00:26:53,679
pickup truck where bill browse is saying

825
00:26:56,470 --> 00:26:55,279
well this is where i found some of the

826
00:26:58,149 --> 00:26:56,480
debris

827
00:26:59,669 --> 00:26:58,159
and there was a gouge down through that

828
00:27:01,029 --> 00:26:59,679
area right over there i'm thinking yeah

829
00:27:02,470 --> 00:27:01,039
we got the right place because bill

830
00:27:04,870 --> 00:27:02,480
brazel took us there and here's a

831
00:27:06,230 --> 00:27:04,880
picture of us on that spot

832
00:27:07,909 --> 00:27:06,240
so we pretty well know that sort of

833
00:27:09,669 --> 00:27:07,919
thing but we realized there was a lot

834
00:27:11,990 --> 00:27:09,679
more to the story now the air force

835
00:27:13,669 --> 00:27:12,000
investigated in 1995 which i find

836
00:27:15,350 --> 00:27:13,679
interesting because they corroborated

837
00:27:17,909 --> 00:27:15,360
everything we said about

838
00:27:19,909 --> 00:27:17,919
no alternative explanations but came up

839
00:27:22,549 --> 00:27:19,919
with this idea it was a top secret

840
00:27:24,230 --> 00:27:22,559
balloon called project mogul

841
00:27:25,750 --> 00:27:24,240
and everybody falls back on that it was

842
00:27:27,430 --> 00:27:25,760
prop secret that's why they had to keep

843
00:27:29,190 --> 00:27:27,440
it keep it quiet what was going on in

844
00:27:32,149 --> 00:27:29,200
new mexico

845
00:27:33,990 --> 00:27:32,159
was not top secret they were using

846
00:27:35,990 --> 00:27:34,000
off-the-shelf

847
00:27:37,430 --> 00:27:36,000
weather balloons and ray-win targets and

848
00:27:39,510 --> 00:27:37,440
equipment

849
00:27:41,350 --> 00:27:39,520
the launches were

850
00:27:42,630 --> 00:27:41,360
um

851
00:27:43,990 --> 00:27:42,640
one of the launches was actually

852
00:27:45,909 --> 00:27:44,000
photographed for the newspaper showing

853
00:27:47,029 --> 00:27:45,919
how top secret it was

854
00:27:48,630 --> 00:27:47,039
um

855
00:27:50,070 --> 00:27:48,640
but but the but the point was what was

856
00:27:51,590 --> 00:27:50,080
going on in new mexico was not top

857
00:27:53,990 --> 00:27:51,600
secret what was secret what was top

858
00:27:56,310 --> 00:27:54,000
secret was the purpose which was to spy

859
00:27:58,549 --> 00:27:56,320
on the soviets they wanted to create a

860
00:28:00,870 --> 00:27:58,559
constant level balloon that they could

861
00:28:02,950 --> 00:28:00,880
put up in the air and listen for atomic

862
00:28:04,310 --> 00:28:02,960
explosions that the soviets might be

863
00:28:05,750 --> 00:28:04,320
detonating and i think it would two

864
00:28:07,590 --> 00:28:05,760
years before the soviets actually

865
00:28:08,950 --> 00:28:07,600
detonated anything but this was what the

866
00:28:11,669 --> 00:28:08,960
plan was

867
00:28:14,149 --> 00:28:11,679
so the idea was a top secret project is

868
00:28:15,669 --> 00:28:14,159
really kind of not true the name mogul

869
00:28:17,590 --> 00:28:15,679
actually appears in the unclassified

870
00:28:18,789 --> 00:28:17,600
diaries kept by the leader of the

871
00:28:20,549 --> 00:28:18,799
expedition

872
00:28:22,710 --> 00:28:20,559
albert crairy

873
00:28:24,789 --> 00:28:22,720
and the other thing i discovered they

874
00:28:27,510 --> 00:28:24,799
always post uh the skeptical community

875
00:28:29,110 --> 00:28:27,520
posts a picture of a 600 foot long beret

876
00:28:31,909 --> 00:28:29,120
project mogul array and it's got three

877
00:28:33,909 --> 00:28:31,919
or four ray-win targets on it

878
00:28:34,630 --> 00:28:33,919
when they got to new mexico they changed

879
00:28:41,110 --> 00:28:34,640
the

880
00:28:43,110 --> 00:28:41,120
ray-win targets

881
00:28:44,950 --> 00:28:43,120
so the debris displayed in colonel

882
00:28:46,470 --> 00:28:44,960
written colonel general ramy's office

883
00:28:49,190 --> 00:28:46,480
which supposedly was the stuff they

884
00:28:51,110 --> 00:28:49,200
found in new mexico has a ray-win target

885
00:28:52,710 --> 00:28:51,120
there but they didn't find a ray when

886
00:28:55,110 --> 00:28:52,720
target because they hadn't been flying

887
00:28:57,029 --> 00:28:55,120
them until later in the month

888
00:28:58,149 --> 00:28:57,039
and so we can rule out project mogul

889
00:28:59,750 --> 00:28:58,159
although that's the air force

890
00:29:01,830 --> 00:28:59,760
explanation but the air force ruled out

891
00:29:03,430 --> 00:29:01,840
all the other explanations as did we and

892
00:29:05,430 --> 00:29:03,440
said well it's project mobile we say no

893
00:29:07,750 --> 00:29:05,440
it's not we know it's not because the

894
00:29:10,710 --> 00:29:07,760
flight 2.2 flight number four in the

895
00:29:13,350 --> 00:29:10,720
documentation says it was cancelled

896
00:29:15,510 --> 00:29:13,360
so a canceled flight cannot leave debris

897
00:29:17,430 --> 00:29:15,520
now the skeptics will say well they flew

898
00:29:18,870 --> 00:29:17,440
a cluster of balloons later in the day

899
00:29:20,710 --> 00:29:18,880
and we don't know what those were and i

900
00:29:22,549 --> 00:29:20,720
say yes we do because we have the

901
00:29:24,630 --> 00:29:22,559
documentation on that we were told what

902
00:29:26,230 --> 00:29:24,640
the cluster was and charles moore who

903
00:29:28,470 --> 00:29:26,240
was one of the guys working on it told

904
00:29:30,310 --> 00:29:28,480
me what the clusters were he told me in

905
00:29:31,669 --> 00:29:30,320
fact that

906
00:29:33,190 --> 00:29:31,679
once they had filled the balloons with

907
00:29:34,789 --> 00:29:33,200
the helium they couldn't get the helium

908
00:29:37,990 --> 00:29:34,799
back in the bottles

909
00:29:40,950 --> 00:29:38,000
so if the

910
00:29:42,470 --> 00:29:40,960
full blown array was canceled for some

911
00:29:43,990 --> 00:29:42,480
reason and on june 4th the one they're

912
00:29:45,350 --> 00:29:44,000
talking about it was cancelled because

913
00:29:47,029 --> 00:29:45,360
of clouds they couldn't fly them in

914
00:29:49,110 --> 00:29:47,039
cloudy weather because they would be a

915
00:29:50,870 --> 00:29:49,120
hazard to aerial navigation

916
00:29:52,789 --> 00:29:50,880
uh the cluster of balloons was much much

917
00:29:54,549 --> 00:29:52,799
smaller and they normally just carried a

918
00:29:57,669 --> 00:29:54,559
microphone they didn't carry any ray-win

919
00:29:59,430 --> 00:29:57,679
targets either so there was nothing

920
00:30:00,470 --> 00:29:59,440
like what was found in raymie's office

921
00:30:02,470 --> 00:30:00,480
other than

922
00:30:04,230 --> 00:30:02,480
that that was found in new mexico and

923
00:30:06,070 --> 00:30:04,240
this is all documented in understanding

924
00:30:07,029 --> 00:30:06,080
roswell and some of the other

925
00:30:09,110 --> 00:30:07,039
um

926
00:30:10,710 --> 00:30:09,120
information there so i i guess that's

927
00:30:12,549 --> 00:30:10,720
kind of a long-winded way what fell at

928
00:30:14,389 --> 00:30:12,559
roswell i believe was extraterrestrial

929
00:30:16,710 --> 00:30:14,399
don is more convinced of it tom carrey

930
00:30:19,269 --> 00:30:16,720
who works with don quite a bit lately is

931
00:30:21,190 --> 00:30:19,279
absolutely convinced of it i have no

932
00:30:22,549 --> 00:30:21,200
terrestrial explanation for it and i

933
00:30:23,909 --> 00:30:22,559
think that had there been a terrestrial

934
00:30:25,350 --> 00:30:23,919
explanation when the air force found

935
00:30:27,350 --> 00:30:25,360
themselves in the hot seat in the

936
00:30:29,510 --> 00:30:27,360
mid-1990s they would have trotted it out

937
00:30:31,510 --> 00:30:29,520
whatever it was right

938
00:30:32,710 --> 00:30:31,520
and they did not do so which means the

939
00:30:36,470 --> 00:30:32,720
best they could come up with this

940
00:30:38,710 --> 00:30:36,480
cockamamie uh project local solution

941
00:30:41,029 --> 00:30:38,720
didn't they initially say that a flying

942
00:30:42,470 --> 00:30:41,039
disk was was found and then they quickly

943
00:30:44,230 --> 00:30:42,480
changed the newspaper article to say it

944
00:30:47,029 --> 00:30:44,240
was a weather balloon they said a flying

945
00:30:48,389 --> 00:30:47,039
saucer the headline says flying saucer

946
00:30:51,590 --> 00:30:48,399
captured

947
00:30:53,669 --> 00:30:51,600
on ranch in roswell region raaf canceled

948
00:30:55,350 --> 00:30:53,679
captures uh flying saucer on ranch in

949
00:30:57,029 --> 00:30:55,360
roswell region so they've said flying

950
00:30:59,029 --> 00:30:57,039
saucer so now you can argue about the

951
00:31:00,710 --> 00:30:59,039
semantics what did flying saucer mean in

952
00:31:02,389 --> 00:31:00,720
1947

953
00:31:04,230 --> 00:31:02,399
and you and you can say well it meant

954
00:31:06,549 --> 00:31:04,240
anything unidentified in the sky kind of

955
00:31:08,789 --> 00:31:06,559
like ufo is um

956
00:31:10,230 --> 00:31:08,799
but it really meant an alien spacecraft

957
00:31:11,669 --> 00:31:10,240
so they're talking about that they have

958
00:31:12,950 --> 00:31:11,679
something they cannot explain they don't

959
00:31:14,230 --> 00:31:12,960
know what it is

960
00:31:15,590 --> 00:31:14,240
and then it's bumped up to higher

961
00:31:17,430 --> 00:31:15,600
headquarters where they managed to cover

962
00:31:20,149 --> 00:31:17,440
the whole thing up brilliantly i might

963
00:31:23,669 --> 00:31:20,159
add until jesse marcel started talking

964
00:31:26,630 --> 00:31:23,679
about it and uh and we got our our

965
00:31:27,830 --> 00:31:26,640
clause into the into the story uh one of

966
00:31:29,669 --> 00:31:27,840
the things that's kind of hilarious

967
00:31:31,509 --> 00:31:29,679
about this is

968
00:31:33,269 --> 00:31:31,519
in 1947

969
00:31:35,350 --> 00:31:33,279
walter hott who was a

970
00:31:39,269 --> 00:31:35,360
public affairs officer at roswell in

971
00:31:42,549 --> 00:31:39,279
1947 was tasked to create a yearbook

972
00:31:43,350 --> 00:31:42,559
and so we have a list and photographs

973
00:31:49,149 --> 00:31:43,360
of

974
00:31:52,549 --> 00:31:49,159
the people assigned to roswell in

975
00:31:54,870 --> 00:31:52,559
1947 december 1947 we have we have their

976
00:31:56,389 --> 00:31:54,880
names so we could begin searching for

977
00:31:57,990 --> 00:31:56,399
people who might know something and i

978
00:32:00,070 --> 00:31:58,000
think it was stan friedman who called

979
00:32:01,269 --> 00:32:00,080
the newspaper the roswell daily record

980
00:32:04,310 --> 00:32:01,279
back in

981
00:32:06,310 --> 00:32:04,320
1978. he's looking for anybody there and

982
00:32:07,909 --> 00:32:06,320
mentioned walter hot

983
00:32:10,389 --> 00:32:07,919
and the guy he's talking to his wife

984
00:32:11,509 --> 00:32:10,399
works here would you like to talk to her

985
00:32:13,990 --> 00:32:11,519
and so

986
00:32:15,750 --> 00:32:14,000
walter hot became an important part of

987
00:32:17,750 --> 00:32:15,760
this jessie marcel was in houma

988
00:32:19,669 --> 00:32:17,760
louisiana

989
00:32:21,750 --> 00:32:19,679
edwin easley was in fort worth texas as

990
00:32:25,590 --> 00:32:21,760
a matter of fact

991
00:32:27,909 --> 00:32:25,600
bill braza was in capitan new mexico

992
00:32:30,789 --> 00:32:27,919
we did not talk to the sheriff because

993
00:32:31,990 --> 00:32:30,799
he had passed away but we did talk to

994
00:32:34,470 --> 00:32:32,000
his daughters

995
00:32:36,310 --> 00:32:34,480
and we talked to their children so we

996
00:32:38,870 --> 00:32:36,320
got the granddaughters in there and we

997
00:32:40,470 --> 00:32:38,880
found other witnesses who were

998
00:32:42,149 --> 00:32:40,480
involved in some fashion melvin brown

999
00:32:43,830 --> 00:32:42,159
for example

1000
00:32:45,190 --> 00:32:43,840
eventually married a woman from england

1001
00:32:47,430 --> 00:32:45,200
and ended up in england but he was in

1002
00:32:48,789 --> 00:32:47,440
roswell in 1947 who told the family

1003
00:32:50,230 --> 00:32:48,799
about

1004
00:32:51,669 --> 00:32:50,240
being

1005
00:32:53,029 --> 00:32:51,679
dragged out for guard duty and anybody

1006
00:32:54,470 --> 00:32:53,039
who's been in the army for any length of

1007
00:32:56,149 --> 00:32:54,480
time i know in basic training you're

1008
00:32:57,990 --> 00:32:56,159
turn you're taught how to stand guard

1009
00:33:00,710 --> 00:32:58,000
that's basic training

1010
00:33:02,389 --> 00:33:00,720
and if you've got some kind of a

1011
00:33:04,230 --> 00:33:02,399
mission that requires a lot of extra

1012
00:33:05,750 --> 00:33:04,240
people

1013
00:33:07,269 --> 00:33:05,760
you sweep through the base and you pick

1014
00:33:09,509 --> 00:33:07,279
up all the people who are not normally

1015
00:33:10,710 --> 00:33:09,519
assigned to those sorts of units that

1016
00:33:12,549 --> 00:33:10,720
would in this case it would have been

1017
00:33:14,389 --> 00:33:12,559
the mps of the

1018
00:33:16,470 --> 00:33:14,399
security squadron

1019
00:33:19,190 --> 00:33:16,480
and put them on gardenia belvin brown

1020
00:33:20,870 --> 00:33:19,200
was a cook in 1947 but he was caught up

1021
00:33:22,789 --> 00:33:20,880
in this

1022
00:33:24,950 --> 00:33:22,799
dragnet and set out on guard duty he's

1023
00:33:26,789 --> 00:33:24,960
in the back of a truck with another guy

1024
00:33:28,070 --> 00:33:26,799
and they said don't look under the tarp

1025
00:33:30,070 --> 00:33:28,080
and so of course as the truck pulled

1026
00:33:31,509 --> 00:33:30,080
away and nobody could see him he peeked

1027
00:33:32,310 --> 00:33:31,519
under the tarp

1028
00:33:36,630 --> 00:33:32,320
and

1029
00:33:39,190 --> 00:33:36,640
his family about this repeatedly

1030
00:33:41,269 --> 00:33:39,200
beverly bean um living in england yeah

1031
00:33:42,950 --> 00:33:41,279
he eventually brown eventually moved to

1032
00:33:44,470 --> 00:33:42,960
england i guess his well obviously his

1033
00:33:46,870 --> 00:33:44,480
wife is from england

1034
00:33:47,750 --> 00:33:46,880
and uh raised his family there

1035
00:33:49,509 --> 00:33:47,760
and

1036
00:33:51,590 --> 00:33:49,519
the skeptics will say to you well only

1037
00:33:53,350 --> 00:33:51,600
beverly beverly bean talked about this

1038
00:33:54,549 --> 00:33:53,360
no but the family didn't corroborate it

1039
00:33:56,789 --> 00:33:54,559
well

1040
00:33:58,789 --> 00:33:56,799
her sister um

1041
00:34:00,310 --> 00:33:58,799
harriet kutcher

1042
00:34:02,549 --> 00:34:00,320
and the mother

1043
00:34:03,909 --> 00:34:02,559
when we we've got a videotape of them

1044
00:34:06,549 --> 00:34:03,919
saying yes he talked about this

1045
00:34:08,389 --> 00:34:06,559
periodically so it wasn't just beverly

1046
00:34:10,069 --> 00:34:08,399
bean it was the family talking about so

1047
00:34:11,829 --> 00:34:10,079
we have descriptions of the bodies from

1048
00:34:16,310 --> 00:34:11,839
a number of people who were involved in

1049
00:34:18,710 --> 00:34:16,320
this a guy named chester leicester lytle

1050
00:34:20,790 --> 00:34:18,720
well-respected scientist

1051
00:34:23,349 --> 00:34:20,800
held top secrets worked on the atomic

1052
00:34:25,589 --> 00:34:23,359
trigger for the atomic bomb um

1053
00:34:27,430 --> 00:34:25,599
during the during the second world war

1054
00:34:28,869 --> 00:34:27,440
good friends with butch blanchard

1055
00:34:29,750 --> 00:34:28,879
colonel blanchard

1056
00:34:33,750 --> 00:34:29,760
and

1057
00:34:36,710 --> 00:34:33,760
at some point in 1951 1952 somewhere

1058
00:34:38,790 --> 00:34:36,720
libel's in fairbanks alaska i think and

1059
00:34:41,270 --> 00:34:38,800
blanchard's there as well blanchard is

1060
00:34:44,629 --> 00:34:41,280
now i think a general

1061
00:34:47,510 --> 00:34:44,639
and um lido's wife goes into labor

1062
00:34:49,669 --> 00:34:47,520
and he's got to get home to chicago

1063
00:34:51,270 --> 00:34:49,679
so blanchard arranges for him to take a

1064
00:34:52,470 --> 00:34:51,280
military flight and blanchard's on the

1065
00:34:54,069 --> 00:34:52,480
flight with him and i think they went to

1066
00:34:55,909 --> 00:34:54,079
scott air force base and could drive to

1067
00:34:57,589 --> 00:34:55,919
chicago very easily

1068
00:34:59,109 --> 00:34:57,599
and on this flight

1069
00:35:00,710 --> 00:34:59,119
apparently they got to talking about

1070
00:35:02,230 --> 00:35:00,720
what had fallen

1071
00:35:04,470 --> 00:35:02,240
and blanchard confirmed there were four

1072
00:35:06,390 --> 00:35:04,480
bodies poor alien bodies now of course

1073
00:35:08,550 --> 00:35:06,400
the information is second hand but lytle

1074
00:35:10,069 --> 00:35:08,560
has no reason to lie about that i mean

1075
00:35:12,310 --> 00:35:10,079
he doesn't need to he doesn't need his

1076
00:35:15,030 --> 00:35:12,320
ten minutes of fame by talking to us

1077
00:35:16,870 --> 00:35:15,040
about alien bodies he told that to um

1078
00:35:18,710 --> 00:35:16,880
robert hastings

1079
00:35:20,390 --> 00:35:18,720
so you know all that information leads

1080
00:35:22,550 --> 00:35:20,400
to the idea that what fell in roswell

1081
00:35:25,190 --> 00:35:22,560
was something that had not been

1082
00:35:27,750 --> 00:35:25,200
uh built on earth

1083
00:35:29,670 --> 00:35:27,760
and our investigation spanned and parts

1084
00:35:31,270 --> 00:35:29,680
of it is still ongoing i called a couple

1085
00:35:33,910 --> 00:35:31,280
of witnesses not that long ago i was

1086
00:35:36,069 --> 00:35:33,920
working on understanding roswell

1087
00:35:38,069 --> 00:35:36,079
i talked to one guy who was 89 years old

1088
00:35:40,069 --> 00:35:38,079
at one point

1089
00:35:41,510 --> 00:35:40,079
just a few years ago

1090
00:35:42,870 --> 00:35:41,520
and the only thing is is uh we can't i

1091
00:35:44,230 --> 00:35:42,880
can't i don't remember much about we

1092
00:35:45,510 --> 00:35:44,240
were told not to remember we were told

1093
00:35:47,109 --> 00:35:45,520
to forget about it we were told it was

1094
00:35:48,310 --> 00:35:47,119
secrecy and i'm thinking well what would

1095
00:35:50,150 --> 00:35:48,320
be

1096
00:35:51,910 --> 00:35:50,160
that critical

1097
00:35:53,030 --> 00:35:51,920
we talked to a number of people like

1098
00:35:54,390 --> 00:35:53,040
that

1099
00:35:55,990 --> 00:35:54,400
we talked to

1100
00:35:57,670 --> 00:35:56,000
the firefighters

1101
00:36:00,150 --> 00:35:57,680
the story was a fire one of the fighter

1102
00:36:01,589 --> 00:36:00,160
fighters had gone out there and uh

1103
00:36:02,950 --> 00:36:01,599
you go back and look at the records for

1104
00:36:04,310 --> 00:36:02,960
the fire station well no there's no

1105
00:36:05,670 --> 00:36:04,320
record of that i actually saw the

1106
00:36:07,670 --> 00:36:05,680
records i went through the records for

1107
00:36:09,109 --> 00:36:07,680
1947 nothing there

1108
00:36:10,630 --> 00:36:09,119
the the story was well the fire

1109
00:36:12,150 --> 00:36:10,640
department didn't make runs outside the

1110
00:36:13,270 --> 00:36:12,160
city limits one of the firefighters told

1111
00:36:14,069 --> 00:36:13,280
me what he was supposed to do let it

1112
00:36:15,510 --> 00:36:14,079
burn

1113
00:36:18,310 --> 00:36:15,520
so of course they made runs outside the

1114
00:36:21,349 --> 00:36:18,320
city limits but

1115
00:36:24,870 --> 00:36:22,950
one of the guys one of the firefighters

1116
00:36:26,390 --> 00:36:24,880
there

1117
00:36:28,470 --> 00:36:26,400
he said no we didn't make a run out

1118
00:36:30,710 --> 00:36:28,480
there we didn't go and i said did you uh

1119
00:36:33,109 --> 00:36:30,720
know dan dwyer

1120
00:36:34,870 --> 00:36:33,119
he said oh yeah dan went out there

1121
00:36:36,310 --> 00:36:34,880
and i thought what

1122
00:36:38,630 --> 00:36:36,320
he didn't make it as an official run he

1123
00:36:40,550 --> 00:36:38,640
went out the nearest in his private car

1124
00:36:41,910 --> 00:36:40,560
so it's not logged it wasn't an official

1125
00:36:43,829 --> 00:36:41,920
run and he went out there to see what

1126
00:36:45,270 --> 00:36:43,839
was going on some colonel showed up at

1127
00:36:46,150 --> 00:36:45,280
the at the fire department always

1128
00:36:47,589 --> 00:36:46,160
laughing there's always a colonel's

1129
00:36:48,870 --> 00:36:47,599
never lieutenant and every captain away

1130
00:36:50,470 --> 00:36:48,880
a colonel

1131
00:36:52,390 --> 00:36:50,480
shows up and said you don't need to

1132
00:36:53,910 --> 00:36:52,400
worry about it we got it covered

1133
00:36:55,990 --> 00:36:53,920
but but dwyer went out there in his

1134
00:36:57,670 --> 00:36:56,000
private car and he saw the bodies

1135
00:37:00,230 --> 00:36:57,680
and told his daughter about it frankie

1136
00:37:01,589 --> 00:37:00,240
rowe a very nice woman

1137
00:37:03,270 --> 00:37:01,599
um

1138
00:37:05,349 --> 00:37:03,280
frankie rowe also had an opportunity to

1139
00:37:07,670 --> 00:37:05,359
see some of the debris because she she

1140
00:37:09,910 --> 00:37:07,680
was in roswell and the story was that

1141
00:37:11,030 --> 00:37:09,920
she had had some teeth extracted or

1142
00:37:12,950 --> 00:37:11,040
something and she was waiting for her

1143
00:37:13,829 --> 00:37:12,960
father to take her home after having

1144
00:37:15,349 --> 00:37:13,839
this

1145
00:37:17,589 --> 00:37:15,359
minor surgery

1146
00:37:18,950 --> 00:37:17,599
and while she was waiting there state

1147
00:37:21,030 --> 00:37:18,960
trooper came in and he had a piece of

1148
00:37:22,470 --> 00:37:21,040
the metallic debris the

1149
00:37:24,630 --> 00:37:22,480
foil-like material and showed it to him

1150
00:37:26,069 --> 00:37:24,640
and she got the a chance to handle it

1151
00:37:27,589 --> 00:37:26,079
and we talked to other people who

1152
00:37:28,790 --> 00:37:27,599
handled debris like that and we could

1153
00:37:31,030 --> 00:37:28,800
see how the air force had kind of

1154
00:37:34,870 --> 00:37:31,040
manipulated the whole

1155
00:37:36,470 --> 00:37:34,880
story in the affidavit sally tandolini

1156
00:37:38,230 --> 00:37:36,480
it's i think her mother's marion

1157
00:37:40,550 --> 00:37:38,240
strickland lyman strickland was her were

1158
00:37:42,310 --> 00:37:40,560
her parents who the razzles and bill

1159
00:37:43,670 --> 00:37:42,320
braza was over at their ranch one day

1160
00:37:46,150 --> 00:37:43,680
and he had a piece of the debris and was

1161
00:37:47,829 --> 00:37:46,160
showing it to them and sally tatellini

1162
00:37:50,950 --> 00:37:47,839
described it in her affidavit in the air

1163
00:37:54,630 --> 00:37:53,430
quoted one paragraph of it

1164
00:37:55,670 --> 00:37:54,640
which made it sound like it was

1165
00:37:57,750 --> 00:37:55,680
something

1166
00:37:59,990 --> 00:37:57,760
sort of strange but not

1167
00:38:01,750 --> 00:38:00,000
extraterrestrial

1168
00:38:03,349 --> 00:38:01,760
they didn't quote the whole story and i

1169
00:38:05,510 --> 00:38:03,359
think well that's

1170
00:38:07,270 --> 00:38:05,520
cherry picking the the information so

1171
00:38:08,950 --> 00:38:07,280
when you get to

1172
00:38:10,630 --> 00:38:08,960
understanding roswell that whole

1173
00:38:13,190 --> 00:38:10,640
advocate is in there

1174
00:38:15,109 --> 00:38:13,200
um you try not to

1175
00:38:16,550 --> 00:38:15,119
when i'm doing a book like this i think

1176
00:38:18,390 --> 00:38:16,560
it's important to

1177
00:38:21,190 --> 00:38:18,400
not cherry poke the information if i'm

1178
00:38:22,870 --> 00:38:21,200
in a debate on ufos i'll leave out stuff

1179
00:38:25,030 --> 00:38:22,880
because i'm in a debate

1180
00:38:26,950 --> 00:38:25,040
and in a debate that's what you do you

1181
00:38:29,030 --> 00:38:26,960
use the information that

1182
00:38:31,190 --> 00:38:29,040
supports your point of view you try to

1183
00:38:32,630 --> 00:38:31,200
counter the other side's point of view

1184
00:38:34,310 --> 00:38:32,640
but you don't bring up anything they

1185
00:38:35,750 --> 00:38:34,320
don't know it's kind of like in a in a

1186
00:38:38,310 --> 00:38:35,760
courtroom case

1187
00:38:40,230 --> 00:38:38,320
if if if you've got something on the on

1188
00:38:42,550 --> 00:38:40,240
the defense that you don't want them to

1189
00:38:44,470 --> 00:38:42,560
know you wait till the courtroom drama

1190
00:38:46,470 --> 00:38:44,480
and you you bring it up then it's you

1191
00:38:48,069 --> 00:38:46,480
know it's a fight like that

1192
00:38:50,470 --> 00:38:48,079
on the other hand and i'm doing a book

1193
00:38:53,030 --> 00:38:50,480
and i'm talking about a specific

1194
00:38:54,310 --> 00:38:53,040
incident like like roswell i try to put

1195
00:38:56,069 --> 00:38:54,320
in everything

1196
00:38:59,670 --> 00:38:56,079
so that the reader can make up his or

1197
00:39:01,670 --> 00:38:59,680
her own mind about what uh what fell

1198
00:39:03,670 --> 00:39:01,680
and and i think in the air force

1199
00:39:05,829 --> 00:39:03,680
investigation

1200
00:39:07,829 --> 00:39:05,839
they they left some things out things

1201
00:39:10,950 --> 00:39:07,839
that we would know i used to get calls

1202
00:39:12,790 --> 00:39:10,960
from uh captain mcandrew who was a

1203
00:39:15,430 --> 00:39:12,800
colonel weaver's

1204
00:39:17,510 --> 00:39:15,440
assistant on this project creating the

1205
00:39:19,030 --> 00:39:17,520
air force investigation he said well you

1206
00:39:20,550 --> 00:39:19,040
can tell me that you're just in it for

1207
00:39:22,310 --> 00:39:20,560
the money you don't care about that you

1208
00:39:24,230 --> 00:39:22,320
just want the money i said no i this is

1209
00:39:25,349 --> 00:39:24,240
a story i want to tell it's a good story

1210
00:39:27,109 --> 00:39:25,359
and i'm going to tell the story as best

1211
00:39:29,349 --> 00:39:27,119
i can and i'm going to tell the whole

1212
00:39:31,190 --> 00:39:29,359
story not just what supports my point of

1213
00:39:32,870 --> 00:39:31,200
view but what supports

1214
00:39:34,710 --> 00:39:32,880
the entire

1215
00:39:36,310 --> 00:39:34,720
you you can cherry-pick the information

1216
00:39:37,990 --> 00:39:36,320
and make an argument either way by

1217
00:39:39,670 --> 00:39:38,000
cherry-picking the information i think

1218
00:39:41,589 --> 00:39:39,680
if you look at it dispassionately you're

1219
00:39:43,270 --> 00:39:41,599
going to come to the conclusion

1220
00:39:44,950 --> 00:39:43,280
well it would be nice to have the craft

1221
00:39:46,950 --> 00:39:44,960
or the bodies or photographs of that

1222
00:39:49,270 --> 00:39:46,960
kind of thing but there really is no

1223
00:39:51,510 --> 00:39:49,280
explanation for this at the time at this

1224
00:39:52,470 --> 00:39:51,520
time we don't know what fell so there

1225
00:39:54,310 --> 00:39:52,480
you go

1226
00:39:56,550 --> 00:39:54,320
and kevin do you know if there was a

1227
00:39:58,870 --> 00:39:56,560
substantial amount of craft left because

1228
00:40:00,870 --> 00:39:58,880
i always hear about the debris the fiber

1229
00:40:02,550 --> 00:40:00,880
optics but i never hear about

1230
00:40:04,470 --> 00:40:02,560
was there a majority of the craft that

1231
00:40:07,510 --> 00:40:04,480
was left over from this crash or was it

1232
00:40:10,069 --> 00:40:07,520
just basically just debris at that point

1233
00:40:11,750 --> 00:40:10,079
according to the information

1234
00:40:14,069 --> 00:40:11,760
there was the debris field which is

1235
00:40:15,910 --> 00:40:14,079
where we were talking about the debris

1236
00:40:17,589 --> 00:40:15,920
but there was some sort of an escape pod

1237
00:40:19,270 --> 00:40:17,599
or some kind of an internal pod that was

1238
00:40:21,349 --> 00:40:19,280
found two and a half to three miles away

1239
00:40:24,069 --> 00:40:21,359
and that's where the bodies were found

1240
00:40:25,829 --> 00:40:24,079
so it's like it kind of shed shed its

1241
00:40:28,309 --> 00:40:25,839
outside skin

1242
00:40:30,950 --> 00:40:28,319
uh when it when it hit the ground

1243
00:40:32,950 --> 00:40:30,960
um for the debris field it and according

1244
00:40:35,990 --> 00:40:32,960
what bill brazel said it was

1245
00:40:37,670 --> 00:40:36,000
the gouge in the debris field was narrow

1246
00:40:38,950 --> 00:40:37,680
at one end kind of

1247
00:40:40,950 --> 00:40:38,960
got fatter

1248
00:40:43,109 --> 00:40:40,960
in the middle and then kind of tapered

1249
00:40:45,589 --> 00:40:43,119
out like it had skipped

1250
00:40:47,829 --> 00:40:45,599
and and so that's

1251
00:40:49,190 --> 00:40:47,839
what happened it the pod came down

1252
00:40:51,030 --> 00:40:49,200
elsewhere

1253
00:40:53,109 --> 00:40:51,040
and that's where the bodies were found

1254
00:40:54,550 --> 00:40:53,119
so the debris field we got a very good

1255
00:40:55,829 --> 00:40:54,560
handle on

1256
00:40:59,589 --> 00:40:55,839
the

1257
00:41:01,030 --> 00:40:59,599
handle on but we we have some good

1258
00:41:02,790 --> 00:41:01,040
information about that from people who

1259
00:41:04,390 --> 00:41:02,800
are involved in that edwin easley would

1260
00:41:07,349 --> 00:41:04,400
have been involved in that

1261
00:41:11,349 --> 00:41:07,359
bill rickett who was the ncoic of the

1262
00:41:12,069 --> 00:41:11,359
cie a i believe he was tdy to the bo no

1263
00:41:15,670 --> 00:41:12,079
i'm

1264
00:41:17,910 --> 00:41:15,680
fun

1265
00:41:19,829 --> 00:41:17,920
uh ncoic was the non-commissioned

1266
00:41:23,190 --> 00:41:19,839
officer in charge he would be the senior

1267
00:41:24,390 --> 00:41:23,200
sergeant of the cia detachment cia cic

1268
00:41:27,270 --> 00:41:24,400
detachment

1269
00:41:30,150 --> 00:41:27,280
at roswell at the time and he and

1270
00:41:32,710 --> 00:41:30,160
cavett went out to a site now from what

1271
00:41:34,950 --> 00:41:32,720
ricketts said the site was much closer

1272
00:41:36,230 --> 00:41:34,960
than the debris field that mac brazil

1273
00:41:38,150 --> 00:41:36,240
had found

1274
00:41:39,430 --> 00:41:38,160
he said it took about 45 minutes to get

1275
00:41:41,190 --> 00:41:39,440
out there the

1276
00:41:42,950 --> 00:41:41,200
travel time today

1277
00:41:44,630 --> 00:41:42,960
to get to the debris field is three

1278
00:41:46,230 --> 00:41:44,640
three and a half hours

1279
00:41:47,990 --> 00:41:46,240
with modern roads and we know exactly

1280
00:41:51,109 --> 00:41:48,000
where it is

1281
00:41:53,109 --> 00:41:51,119
so this was some place much closer

1282
00:41:54,870 --> 00:41:53,119
and easily was there according to what

1283
00:41:56,150 --> 00:41:54,880
ricketts said and

1284
00:41:57,750 --> 00:41:56,160
they were looking down and there was a

1285
00:41:59,190 --> 00:41:57,760
piece of debris that he picked up he

1286
00:42:00,230 --> 00:41:59,200
said it was like two and a half feet

1287
00:42:01,109 --> 00:42:00,240
three feet

1288
00:42:03,190 --> 00:42:01,119
by

1289
00:42:05,430 --> 00:42:03,200
four feet something like that

1290
00:42:09,430 --> 00:42:05,440
light ray but he described as like cold

1291
00:42:12,950 --> 00:42:11,510
look to it he picked it up and he

1292
00:42:17,910 --> 00:42:12,960
couldn't bend it

1293
00:42:19,430 --> 00:42:17,920
and

1294
00:42:21,670 --> 00:42:19,440
one of the guys said well he's trying to

1295
00:42:24,390 --> 00:42:21,680
do what we couldn't do which was bend

1296
00:42:26,390 --> 00:42:24,400
this debris and he he asked is it hot

1297
00:42:28,230 --> 00:42:26,400
meaning is it radioactive and he said no

1298
00:42:29,750 --> 00:42:28,240
it's not so we've got you know

1299
00:42:31,910 --> 00:42:29,760
descriptions of this second site from

1300
00:42:33,670 --> 00:42:31,920
people like the the cic guy who was

1301
00:42:36,870 --> 00:42:33,680
there keep wanting to say cia for some

1302
00:42:38,630 --> 00:42:36,880
reason a guy who was there easily easily

1303
00:42:39,910 --> 00:42:38,640
was very circumspect on what he would

1304
00:42:41,349 --> 00:42:39,920
tell me

1305
00:42:42,710 --> 00:42:41,359
and he would always

1306
00:42:44,150 --> 00:42:42,720
if i got into an area he didn't want to

1307
00:42:46,309 --> 00:42:44,160
talk about he said i can't tell you that

1308
00:42:48,390 --> 00:42:46,319
i was phoned to secrecy i was at the

1309
00:42:49,750 --> 00:42:48,400
center for your studies

1310
00:42:50,870 --> 00:42:49,760
and they said use the telephone over

1311
00:42:52,150 --> 00:42:50,880
there if you have some phone calls to

1312
00:42:53,670 --> 00:42:52,160
make this was back when we used to have

1313
00:42:54,950 --> 00:42:53,680
to pay for long distance calls and my

1314
00:42:56,550 --> 00:42:54,960
phone bills were running three and four

1315
00:42:58,230 --> 00:42:56,560
hundred dollars a month and here's

1316
00:42:59,750 --> 00:42:58,240
opportunity to use a phone and i don't

1317
00:43:01,829 --> 00:42:59,760
have to pay for the call

1318
00:43:03,670 --> 00:43:01,839
so i called easily i didn't have my

1319
00:43:04,550 --> 00:43:03,680
recording equipment because i wasn't

1320
00:43:06,230 --> 00:43:04,560
home

1321
00:43:08,309 --> 00:43:06,240
and i'm talking to him about this and i

1322
00:43:10,550 --> 00:43:08,319
said well are we following the right

1323
00:43:12,309 --> 00:43:10,560
path he says what do you mean i said

1324
00:43:13,510 --> 00:43:12,319
well we think it's extraterrestrial he

1325
00:43:15,190 --> 00:43:13,520
said well let me put it this way it's

1326
00:43:17,190 --> 00:43:15,200
not the wrong path

1327
00:43:18,550 --> 00:43:17,200
not exactly a ringing endorsement but

1328
00:43:21,030 --> 00:43:18,560
certainly an interesting piece of

1329
00:43:23,109 --> 00:43:21,040
information about that well everybody

1330
00:43:24,230 --> 00:43:23,119
says if the moment i'd heard they had

1331
00:43:26,230 --> 00:43:24,240
heard that they'd run out and bought

1332
00:43:27,910 --> 00:43:26,240
another recorder and gone back and

1333
00:43:29,190 --> 00:43:27,920
called him right back

1334
00:43:31,589 --> 00:43:29,200
i'm thinking

1335
00:43:33,190 --> 00:43:31,599
i'm going to talk to this guy again

1336
00:43:35,430 --> 00:43:33,200
you know there's there's no reason to

1337
00:43:37,750 --> 00:43:35,440
suspect anything and i'll get him on

1338
00:43:38,950 --> 00:43:37,760
tape later on when i'm at home

1339
00:43:41,910 --> 00:43:38,960
turned out

1340
00:43:44,069 --> 00:43:41,920
easily uh had cancer

1341
00:43:46,309 --> 00:43:44,079
and uh i never had another chance to

1342
00:43:47,349 --> 00:43:46,319
chat with him about it

1343
00:43:49,349 --> 00:43:47,359
um

1344
00:43:50,950 --> 00:43:49,359
and in fact i'd

1345
00:43:52,630 --> 00:43:50,960
mark rodicker and the way i found this

1346
00:43:54,790 --> 00:43:52,640
out mark roddick the scientific director

1347
00:43:56,069 --> 00:43:54,800
for center field studies had said to me

1348
00:43:57,510 --> 00:43:56,079
one day he was going to be in the fort

1349
00:43:58,550 --> 00:43:57,520
worth area and could i arrange a meeting

1350
00:44:00,390 --> 00:43:58,560
with

1351
00:44:02,069 --> 00:44:00,400
easley and i thought yeah great let's

1352
00:44:03,829 --> 00:44:02,079
have another guy

1353
00:44:05,990 --> 00:44:03,839
talk to this man because a different

1354
00:44:08,150 --> 00:44:06,000
perspective for crying out loud

1355
00:44:09,670 --> 00:44:08,160
and so i wrote a letter to the family

1356
00:44:11,270 --> 00:44:09,680
and asked him about it and got a very

1357
00:44:13,270 --> 00:44:11,280
nice letter back from

1358
00:44:15,109 --> 00:44:13,280
one of the daughters

1359
00:44:16,550 --> 00:44:15,119
telling me her father was extremely ill

1360
00:44:17,829 --> 00:44:16,560
and her mother was scared to death

1361
00:44:19,829 --> 00:44:17,839
thought i was some kind of government

1362
00:44:21,349 --> 00:44:19,839
agent trying to get something on him so

1363
00:44:23,190 --> 00:44:21,359
he could

1364
00:44:24,630 --> 00:44:23,200
end his pension or whatever when all i

1365
00:44:26,470 --> 00:44:24,640
wanted was information and i wrote a

1366
00:44:28,390 --> 00:44:26,480
letter don't worry about it i'll

1367
00:44:29,190 --> 00:44:28,400
tell everybody the situation meaning you

1368
00:44:30,950 --> 00:44:29,200
know

1369
00:44:32,470 --> 00:44:30,960
the guy is now unavailable please don't

1370
00:44:33,589 --> 00:44:32,480
bother the family

1371
00:44:34,870 --> 00:44:33,599
and of course there are people out there

1372
00:44:36,390 --> 00:44:34,880
who would have anyway if they've known

1373
00:44:39,270 --> 00:44:36,400
how to find him unfortunately he was

1374
00:44:41,430 --> 00:44:39,280
very hard to find

1375
00:44:43,190 --> 00:44:41,440
and so he passed away not long after

1376
00:44:44,790 --> 00:44:43,200
that but the one thing that did happen

1377
00:44:45,750 --> 00:44:44,800
was

1378
00:44:48,470 --> 00:44:45,760
the

1379
00:44:50,309 --> 00:44:48,480
granddaughter i think it was showed up

1380
00:44:51,670 --> 00:44:50,319
at the hospital with a copy of the ufo

1381
00:44:52,950 --> 00:44:51,680
crash at roswell which was the first

1382
00:44:54,630 --> 00:44:52,960
book that don and i had done on the

1383
00:44:56,309 --> 00:44:54,640
roswell ufo crashed

1384
00:44:57,910 --> 00:44:56,319
and asked him about it and he said oh

1385
00:44:59,750 --> 00:44:57,920
the creatures

1386
00:45:04,150 --> 00:44:59,760
so we had a little bit of additional

1387
00:45:09,829 --> 00:45:06,710
with a cover picture of a fake ufo that

1388
00:45:11,510 --> 00:45:09,839
really annoyed the hell out of me but

1389
00:45:14,230 --> 00:45:11,520
but yeah yeah um

1390
00:45:16,950 --> 00:45:14,240
so uh he talked about all the creatures

1391
00:45:18,470 --> 00:45:16,960
so we have we have the family and and uh

1392
00:45:19,510 --> 00:45:18,480
talking about this

1393
00:45:20,950 --> 00:45:19,520
um

1394
00:45:22,550 --> 00:45:20,960
so we have a little bit of additional

1395
00:45:24,230 --> 00:45:22,560
corroboration so that's kind of where

1396
00:45:25,750 --> 00:45:24,240
the story is you know we have we have

1397
00:45:26,950 --> 00:45:25,760
some first-hand witnesses that talked

1398
00:45:29,430 --> 00:45:26,960
about it we have some first-hand

1399
00:45:31,829 --> 00:45:29,440
witnesses gave us hints and we have some

1400
00:45:33,990 --> 00:45:31,839
second-hand witnesses who uh got the

1401
00:45:35,990 --> 00:45:34,000
stories from from their their parents or

1402
00:45:36,790 --> 00:45:36,000
their grandparents and that sort of

1403
00:45:37,829 --> 00:45:36,800
thing

1404
00:45:38,630 --> 00:45:37,839
um

1405
00:45:40,790 --> 00:45:38,640
so

1406
00:45:42,630 --> 00:45:40,800
you know i i i like i say i think we can

1407
00:45:45,030 --> 00:45:42,640
lean toward the extraterrestrial on this

1408
00:45:47,030 --> 00:45:45,040
crash and the recovery and the effort to

1409
00:45:50,150 --> 00:45:47,040
keep it secret for

1410
00:45:51,990 --> 00:45:50,160
i think 35 or 36 years before it um

1411
00:45:54,390 --> 00:45:52,000
jesse marcel talked about it and then of

1412
00:45:55,910 --> 00:45:54,400
course the attempt in 1995 to bury the

1413
00:45:58,870 --> 00:45:55,920
whole thing under the

1414
00:46:00,870 --> 00:45:58,880
guise of project mogul

1415
00:46:02,630 --> 00:46:00,880
i've heard you say in the past that

1416
00:46:04,550 --> 00:46:02,640
you're an optimist but you're still a

1417
00:46:06,630 --> 00:46:04,560
skeptic at heart and i think that's the

1418
00:46:09,349 --> 00:46:06,640
best way to keep your science mind and

1419
00:46:11,190 --> 00:46:09,359
your curiosity in in due balance but

1420
00:46:13,349 --> 00:46:11,200
i've also heard you comment on the

1421
00:46:14,550 --> 00:46:13,359
difference between being a skeptic and a

1422
00:46:16,710 --> 00:46:14,560
debunker

1423
00:46:18,390 --> 00:46:16,720
and they're quite different so maybe

1424
00:46:19,750 --> 00:46:18,400
give us your perspective on the

1425
00:46:22,550 --> 00:46:19,760
difference between the two you know one

1426
00:46:25,510 --> 00:46:22,560
being more receptive than the other

1427
00:46:27,750 --> 00:46:25,520
i uh traced that attitude back to my

1428
00:46:30,390 --> 00:46:27,760
interview with james van allen yeah that

1429
00:46:31,990 --> 00:46:30,400
guy the radiation belts guy he was uh

1430
00:46:33,430 --> 00:46:32,000
the chairman of the department of

1431
00:46:35,589 --> 00:46:33,440
physics and astronomy at the university

1432
00:46:37,670 --> 00:46:35,599
of iowa i was attending university bob

1433
00:46:39,829 --> 00:46:37,680
cornett who i mentioned earlier

1434
00:46:41,510 --> 00:46:39,839
um said to me one day we should talk to

1435
00:46:42,870 --> 00:46:41,520
ben allen about it and i i know van

1436
00:46:44,950 --> 00:46:42,880
allen i'm thinking sure you know van i

1437
00:46:45,829 --> 00:46:44,960
don't like i did he taught in one of my

1438
00:46:49,190 --> 00:46:45,839
class

1439
00:46:50,309 --> 00:46:49,200
and lectured us

1440
00:46:51,910 --> 00:46:50,319
so we're in the

1441
00:46:53,990 --> 00:46:51,920
on an elevator in the physics building

1442
00:46:55,750 --> 00:46:54,000
and van allen gets on the elevator he

1443
00:46:57,750 --> 00:46:55,760
looks always says hi bob

1444
00:47:00,230 --> 00:46:57,760
and bob says hi van turns out he really

1445
00:47:01,990 --> 00:47:00,240
didn't know van island so he set up an

1446
00:47:04,230 --> 00:47:02,000
interview and for some reason bob

1447
00:47:06,069 --> 00:47:04,240
couldn't attend but i did but the point

1448
00:47:07,430 --> 00:47:06,079
is van allen was talking about these

1449
00:47:09,109 --> 00:47:07,440
sorts of things

1450
00:47:10,790 --> 00:47:09,119
and i was asking about the best way to

1451
00:47:12,870 --> 00:47:10,800
do the investigation he said well you

1452
00:47:14,150 --> 00:47:12,880
have to take it from this passionate

1453
00:47:15,910 --> 00:47:14,160
point of view

1454
00:47:16,870 --> 00:47:15,920
you know you're you're not a you're not

1455
00:47:29,910 --> 00:47:16,880
a

1456
00:47:32,390 --> 00:47:29,920
evidence the debunker knows there's no

1457
00:47:33,990 --> 00:47:32,400
el the alien visitation ergo anything

1458
00:47:35,430 --> 00:47:34,000
that suggests otherwise must be a hoax

1459
00:47:36,790 --> 00:47:35,440
or a lie

1460
00:47:37,990 --> 00:47:36,800
and then you get at the other end of the

1461
00:47:38,790 --> 00:47:38,000
spectrum you have the true believer

1462
00:47:39,829 --> 00:47:38,800
where they're going to believe

1463
00:47:41,910 --> 00:47:39,839
everything

1464
00:47:44,150 --> 00:47:41,920
and no matter what evidence you present

1465
00:47:46,630 --> 00:47:44,160
they're not going to listen to you and

1466
00:47:49,589 --> 00:47:46,640
then you get into the people who are

1467
00:47:51,670 --> 00:47:49,599
researchers who are looking for answers

1468
00:47:53,990 --> 00:47:51,680
and so the skeptics and the and the

1469
00:47:55,670 --> 00:47:54,000
researchers are sort of in the same same

1470
00:47:56,870 --> 00:47:55,680
boat maybe at opposite ends of the boat

1471
00:47:58,549 --> 00:47:56,880
and they're but they're talking to one

1472
00:48:00,870 --> 00:47:58,559
another in the boat

1473
00:48:02,549 --> 00:48:00,880
and and uh looking at the evidence what

1474
00:48:03,829 --> 00:48:02,559
does the evidence tell me where can i go

1475
00:48:05,349 --> 00:48:03,839
with the evidence

1476
00:48:07,109 --> 00:48:05,359
and and that's that's the important

1477
00:48:08,630 --> 00:48:07,119
point you need to look at the evidence

1478
00:48:10,470 --> 00:48:08,640
where does the evidence take you even if

1479
00:48:12,549 --> 00:48:10,480
you don't like where it goes

1480
00:48:13,349 --> 00:48:12,559
and i've got i've run into some cases

1481
00:48:15,910 --> 00:48:13,359
where

1482
00:48:17,750 --> 00:48:15,920
um i was convinced that had some kind of

1483
00:48:19,030 --> 00:48:17,760
an extraterrestrial component looking at

1484
00:48:27,270 --> 00:48:19,040
the

1485
00:48:30,549 --> 00:48:27,280
from

1486
00:48:33,030 --> 00:48:30,559
1948 these were two airline pilots whose

1487
00:48:35,190 --> 00:48:33,040
saw cigar-shaped craft flashed by their

1488
00:48:37,430 --> 00:48:35,200
airliner we square windows on it and

1489
00:48:39,430 --> 00:48:37,440
then disappear into the clouds

1490
00:48:42,470 --> 00:48:39,440
and for the longest time this was an

1491
00:48:43,430 --> 00:48:42,480
unidentified jalen van gaal j allen

1492
00:48:44,630 --> 00:48:43,440
heineck

1493
00:48:45,829 --> 00:48:44,640
who was the air force consultant

1494
00:48:48,069 --> 00:48:45,839
originally said well it sounds like a

1495
00:48:49,589 --> 00:48:48,079
bullet very bright meteor to me and then

1496
00:48:50,470 --> 00:48:49,599
of course

1497
00:48:51,829 --> 00:48:50,480
um

1498
00:48:53,270 --> 00:48:51,839
everybody said no it can't be that it's

1499
00:48:56,069 --> 00:48:53,280
got to be something else

1500
00:48:58,950 --> 00:48:56,079
well in march of 1968

1501
00:49:00,630 --> 00:48:58,960
i think it was the zone4

1502
00:49:02,390 --> 00:49:00,640
uh spacecraft i think the soviet

1503
00:49:03,990 --> 00:49:02,400
spacecraft re-entered the atmosphere and

1504
00:49:05,750 --> 00:49:04,000
broke up

1505
00:49:07,510 --> 00:49:05,760
and you had a lot of people who saw it

1506
00:49:09,349 --> 00:49:07,520
and watched it break up and said yeah

1507
00:49:10,630 --> 00:49:09,359
that's really kind of neat but there are

1508
00:49:12,150 --> 00:49:10,640
a number of people who said that they'd

1509
00:49:13,430 --> 00:49:12,160
seen a cigar-shaped craft for square

1510
00:49:14,549 --> 00:49:13,440
windows

1511
00:49:16,549 --> 00:49:14,559
in other words there's something in the

1512
00:49:20,150 --> 00:49:16,559
human mind when you

1513
00:49:22,230 --> 00:49:20,160
it it figures in a gestalt psychology

1514
00:49:26,470 --> 00:49:22,240
making something whole out of

1515
00:49:31,589 --> 00:49:30,390
video on youtube called meteoric display

1516
00:49:33,190 --> 00:49:31,599
i think it's something like that it's

1517
00:49:34,950 --> 00:49:33,200
three minutes and 19 seconds and then

1518
00:49:36,150 --> 00:49:34,960
somebody had compiled a bunch of meteor

1519
00:49:37,990 --> 00:49:36,160
falls

1520
00:49:39,589 --> 00:49:38,000
and you can see the objects breaking up

1521
00:49:40,710 --> 00:49:39,599
now we have a chance to look at them

1522
00:49:42,710 --> 00:49:40,720
closely

1523
00:49:44,870 --> 00:49:42,720
you can see you've got a bright cockpit

1524
00:49:46,950 --> 00:49:44,880
at one end and then you have the glowing

1525
00:49:47,910 --> 00:49:46,960
debris strung out behind it and it does

1526
00:49:50,390 --> 00:49:47,920
look

1527
00:49:52,390 --> 00:49:50,400
like a cigar shaped craft with windows

1528
00:49:54,150 --> 00:49:52,400
i am convinced that child's wooded now

1529
00:49:56,470 --> 00:49:54,160
child would have seen a ball light it's

1530
00:49:59,510 --> 00:49:56,480
a meteor it's explainable

1531
00:50:01,270 --> 00:49:59,520
jerry clark and i have discussed this

1532
00:50:03,270 --> 00:50:01,280
once or twice and he is convinced no

1533
00:50:05,430 --> 00:50:03,280
that's not the explanation i think it's

1534
00:50:06,870 --> 00:50:05,440
a good explanation but the point is i

1535
00:50:08,790 --> 00:50:06,880
mean jerry and i can discuss it

1536
00:50:11,030 --> 00:50:08,800
rationally and he comes to one

1537
00:50:12,790 --> 00:50:11,040
conclusion and i come to another

1538
00:50:14,870 --> 00:50:12,800
and i think that's where we should be in

1539
00:50:16,549 --> 00:50:14,880
recent ufo research let's look at all

1540
00:50:19,990 --> 00:50:16,559
the possibilities

1541
00:50:22,710 --> 00:50:20,000
if there was a new piece of evidence

1542
00:50:23,990 --> 00:50:22,720
one of the things that

1543
00:50:25,109 --> 00:50:24,000
has made it into the literature about

1544
00:50:27,750 --> 00:50:25,119
the child's wooded sighting as the

1545
00:50:29,589 --> 00:50:27,760
aircraft was buffeted by turbulence

1546
00:50:31,829 --> 00:50:29,599
as if the the close approach of the

1547
00:50:33,589 --> 00:50:31,839
cigar-shaped craft it created turbulence

1548
00:50:35,589 --> 00:50:33,599
you go back to the original statements

1549
00:50:37,270 --> 00:50:35,599
by those guys there's nothing about

1550
00:50:39,430 --> 00:50:37,280
turbulence at all

1551
00:50:41,190 --> 00:50:39,440
it appears in a newspaper article some

1552
00:50:42,870 --> 00:50:41,200
months later

1553
00:50:44,470 --> 00:50:42,880
but they never mentioned turbulence so

1554
00:50:46,549 --> 00:50:44,480
this idea that there was turbulence has

1555
00:50:49,589 --> 00:50:46,559
grown into it and it suggests something

1556
00:50:51,030 --> 00:50:49,599
more close approach if and now it's way

1557
00:50:53,190 --> 00:50:51,040
too late for it to happen but if they're

1558
00:50:54,390 --> 00:50:53,200
witnesses on the ground who'd seen the

1559
00:50:55,990 --> 00:50:54,400
craft as well

1560
00:50:57,589 --> 00:50:56,000
at about the same time well then we can

1561
00:51:01,430 --> 00:50:57,599
take it to a different level but there

1562
00:51:04,390 --> 00:51:02,950
witnesses on the ground incidents

1563
00:51:08,390 --> 00:51:04,400
witnesses on the ground i was thinking

1564
00:51:09,750 --> 00:51:08,400
ahead here um there was a guy at robbins

1565
00:51:12,390 --> 00:51:09,760
air force base i think that's near

1566
00:51:13,670 --> 00:51:12,400
atlanta but the sighting is an hour

1567
00:51:15,430 --> 00:51:13,680
later

1568
00:51:17,750 --> 00:51:15,440
and it really doesn't fit into with what

1569
00:51:19,510 --> 00:51:17,760
charles would have did seen and this all

1570
00:51:20,549 --> 00:51:19,520
took place at 1 32 o'clock in the

1571
00:51:22,390 --> 00:51:20,559
morning so you don't have a lot of

1572
00:51:23,750 --> 00:51:22,400
people outside looking up into the sky

1573
00:51:25,349 --> 00:51:23,760
so there's a reason it wasn't more

1574
00:51:26,790 --> 00:51:25,359
widely reported

1575
00:51:28,950 --> 00:51:26,800
and so yeah that's kind of where we are

1576
00:51:31,349 --> 00:51:28,960
and some of that but that that kind of

1577
00:51:33,190 --> 00:51:31,359
the debunker knows there is no

1578
00:51:35,430 --> 00:51:33,200
visitation therefore anything that says

1579
00:51:37,990 --> 00:51:35,440
suggest otherwise is wrong the skeptic's

1580
00:51:40,230 --> 00:51:38,000
willing to look at the um the evidence

1581
00:51:41,910 --> 00:51:40,240
the investigator the researchers willing

1582
00:51:43,510 --> 00:51:41,920
to look at the evidence and and then get

1583
00:51:45,270 --> 00:51:43,520
the true believer is going to accept

1584
00:51:46,470 --> 00:51:45,280
everything no matter how ridiculous it

1585
00:51:48,069 --> 00:51:46,480
is

1586
00:51:50,710 --> 00:51:48,079
now we um

1587
00:51:52,150 --> 00:51:50,720
we're huge believers in bob lazar i

1588
00:51:55,190 --> 00:51:52,160
don't know what your stance is on bob

1589
00:51:57,349 --> 00:51:55,200
lazar but when i hear him say you know

1590
00:52:00,069 --> 00:51:57,359
at one point he saw over nine crafts

1591
00:52:02,150 --> 00:52:00,079
that the u.s government had

1592
00:52:04,390 --> 00:52:02,160
and with the you know the crash at

1593
00:52:06,230 --> 00:52:04,400
roswell do you think there might be some

1594
00:52:08,069 --> 00:52:06,240
validity to that that the government has

1595
00:52:10,470 --> 00:52:08,079
more than just one

1596
00:52:12,549 --> 00:52:10,480
craft because even reading a trinity by

1597
00:52:14,710 --> 00:52:12,559
jacques valle and paula harris

1598
00:52:16,950 --> 00:52:14,720
it sounds like in 1945 they recovered

1599
00:52:18,870 --> 00:52:16,960
another craft before

1600
00:52:20,309 --> 00:52:18,880
the roswell incident so it sounds like

1601
00:52:22,069 --> 00:52:20,319
the the government

1602
00:52:23,190 --> 00:52:22,079
is always picking up some of these crap

1603
00:52:24,790 --> 00:52:23,200
somewhere

1604
00:52:25,990 --> 00:52:24,800
here here's where we end up with the

1605
00:52:27,750 --> 00:52:26,000
researcher

1606
00:52:30,230 --> 00:52:27,760
and the skeptic

1607
00:52:32,790 --> 00:52:30,240
i find trinity to be

1608
00:52:35,030 --> 00:52:32,800
completely and totally bogus it's a

1609
00:52:37,510 --> 00:52:35,040
single witness based on his observations

1610
00:52:39,510 --> 00:52:37,520
when he was what seven years old

1611
00:52:41,670 --> 00:52:39,520
he approached dan friedman at one point

1612
00:52:43,030 --> 00:52:41,680
trying to sell his story it's uh baca i

1613
00:52:44,829 --> 00:52:43,040
think it is

1614
00:52:47,270 --> 00:52:44,839
jose baca or something like

1615
00:52:49,670 --> 00:52:47,280
that it's not jose i can't remember his

1616
00:52:50,870 --> 00:52:49,680
first name but yeah baca he approached

1617
00:52:54,710 --> 00:52:50,880
me remy

1618
00:52:57,309 --> 00:52:54,720
yes yes thank you remy baca very good um

1619
00:52:59,510 --> 00:52:57,319
trying to trying to figure out how to

1620
00:53:01,190 --> 00:52:59,520
manipulate this into making some money

1621
00:53:02,630 --> 00:53:01,200
he approached don schmidt

1622
00:53:04,950 --> 00:53:02,640
talking about it being over on the

1623
00:53:06,470 --> 00:53:04,960
plains of san agustin at the time and

1624
00:53:08,390 --> 00:53:06,480
then realized that wasn't going to fly

1625
00:53:09,990 --> 00:53:08,400
but i i've read the book i've talked to

1626
00:53:12,309 --> 00:53:10,000
jack valet about this i've talked to

1627
00:53:14,390 --> 00:53:12,319
paula harris about this i do not find

1628
00:53:16,390 --> 00:53:14,400
that book convincing it's based on a

1629
00:53:17,750 --> 00:53:16,400
single witness they said well we got a

1630
00:53:20,069 --> 00:53:17,760
new witness

1631
00:53:21,190 --> 00:53:20,079
she wasn't born until what nine years

1632
00:53:23,750 --> 00:53:21,200
later

1633
00:53:25,990 --> 00:53:23,760
she's got the story from him and she's

1634
00:53:28,549 --> 00:53:26,000
on and i think she's unavailable too at

1635
00:53:30,390 --> 00:53:28,559
the time well we had lots of debris

1636
00:53:31,829 --> 00:53:30,400
and we were passing it out and they were

1637
00:53:33,510 --> 00:53:31,839
using it as christmas ornaments well

1638
00:53:35,109 --> 00:53:33,520
somehow all of that has disappeared now

1639
00:53:37,030 --> 00:53:35,119
this big stringing

1640
00:53:39,190 --> 00:53:37,040
bits of foil like stuff

1641
00:53:40,069 --> 00:53:39,200
he talks about how the military came in

1642
00:53:41,589 --> 00:53:40,079
and they

1643
00:53:42,950 --> 00:53:41,599
asked permission to remove fences and

1644
00:53:44,870 --> 00:53:42,960
they drove this big truck in there and

1645
00:53:46,470 --> 00:53:44,880
they're going to take the craft away

1646
00:53:48,390 --> 00:53:46,480
then it's lunch time so they abandoned

1647
00:53:49,750 --> 00:53:48,400
their truck they all go into town to eat

1648
00:53:53,349 --> 00:53:49,760
so the kids can go out there and they

1649
00:53:55,190 --> 00:53:53,359
look at the you get inside the craft

1650
00:53:58,230 --> 00:53:55,200
there is no way that happened

1651
00:54:00,549 --> 00:53:58,240
i can tell you as a military officer

1652
00:54:03,910 --> 00:54:00,559
as a as an officer who is responsible

1653
00:54:05,430 --> 00:54:03,920
for guarding some secrets like this one

1654
00:54:06,950 --> 00:54:05,440
at a time

1655
00:54:08,230 --> 00:54:06,960
just isn't going to happen that way

1656
00:54:10,950 --> 00:54:08,240
there's no way

1657
00:54:12,870 --> 00:54:10,960
i can believe that two boys out there on

1658
00:54:15,670 --> 00:54:12,880
the ranch might have seen something at

1659
00:54:17,670 --> 00:54:15,680
one point but they never got close to it

1660
00:54:19,430 --> 00:54:17,680
um and and the the rest of the story

1661
00:54:21,190 --> 00:54:19,440
doesn't make sense in fact don schmidt

1662
00:54:23,030 --> 00:54:21,200
will tell you that remy baca approached

1663
00:54:25,589 --> 00:54:23,040
him asking him how he can make money on

1664
00:54:27,190 --> 00:54:25,599
this and who he needs to talk to

1665
00:54:29,270 --> 00:54:27,200
and there's no there's no corroborating

1666
00:54:31,190 --> 00:54:29,280
witnesses for it so no they didn't

1667
00:54:33,990 --> 00:54:31,200
recover a craft at the trinity site in

1668
00:54:35,349 --> 00:54:34,000
1945 i do not believe this story and

1669
00:54:36,789 --> 00:54:35,359
i've looked into this and like i said

1670
00:54:37,829 --> 00:54:36,799
i've talked to jacques fillet and i'm

1671
00:54:39,829 --> 00:54:37,839
sure you probably talked to jacques

1672
00:54:42,150 --> 00:54:39,839
villa as well yeah

1673
00:54:44,150 --> 00:54:42,160
and uh i talked to paula harris and she

1674
00:54:46,549 --> 00:54:44,160
always demurred to

1675
00:54:48,230 --> 00:54:46,559
jacqueline on this story but there's

1676
00:54:50,069 --> 00:54:48,240
really nothing there

1677
00:54:52,150 --> 00:54:50,079
it's not like roswell where you could

1678
00:54:54,069 --> 00:54:52,160
say well glenn dennis the roswell

1679
00:54:55,670 --> 00:54:54,079
mortician turned out to be some what

1680
00:54:57,510 --> 00:54:55,680
less than candid and what he was telling

1681
00:54:58,549 --> 00:54:57,520
us that's a nice way of saying he was

1682
00:54:59,750 --> 00:54:58,559
lying

1683
00:55:03,430 --> 00:54:59,760
um

1684
00:55:06,309 --> 00:55:03,440
but here we have we don't have

1685
00:55:09,349 --> 00:55:06,319
all those witnesses like

1686
00:55:11,589 --> 00:55:09,359
jesse marcel and edwin easley and

1687
00:55:13,109 --> 00:55:11,599
patrick saunders the base adjudant and

1688
00:55:15,349 --> 00:55:13,119
and we've got i've got a statement on

1689
00:55:16,630 --> 00:55:15,359
the the fly leaf of one of the books i i

1690
00:55:18,630 --> 00:55:16,640
think it's the first one you showed

1691
00:55:20,470 --> 00:55:18,640
there the uh you crash at roswell not

1692
00:55:21,829 --> 00:55:20,480
the truth about it but he wrote on there

1693
00:55:23,589 --> 00:55:21,839
here's the truth and they never told

1694
00:55:24,710 --> 00:55:23,599
anybody anyway it's a fly sheet that

1695
00:55:26,470 --> 00:55:24,720
says

1696
00:55:28,230 --> 00:55:26,480
what they did to cover the thing up and

1697
00:55:30,309 --> 00:55:28,240
here's the guy who was responsible for

1698
00:55:32,549 --> 00:55:30,319
part of that signing it signing the fly

1699
00:55:34,710 --> 00:55:32,559
league and say yes we did that

1700
00:55:36,789 --> 00:55:34,720
but they have nothing like that

1701
00:55:38,870 --> 00:55:36,799
i don't i i and i'm sorry i do not

1702
00:55:40,789 --> 00:55:38,880
believe bob lazar

1703
00:55:42,630 --> 00:55:40,799
i do not believe there's the things have

1704
00:55:45,109 --> 00:55:42,640
been raining out of the skies as some

1705
00:55:47,270 --> 00:55:45,119
people i i did a book called crash when

1706
00:55:48,630 --> 00:55:47,280
ufos fall from the sky and people have

1707
00:55:50,150 --> 00:55:48,640
condemned it because it looked like i

1708
00:55:53,109 --> 00:55:50,160
was just running down everybody else's

1709
00:55:54,950 --> 00:55:53,119
stories no i was looking at the evidence

1710
00:55:56,950 --> 00:55:54,960
you know you've got a story it's

1711
00:55:58,470 --> 00:55:56,960
one witness or two witnesses or you've

1712
00:56:00,309 --> 00:55:58,480
got

1713
00:56:02,950 --> 00:56:00,319
charlotte man who seems to be a very

1714
00:56:05,109 --> 00:56:02,960
nice lady talking about her father or

1715
00:56:07,430 --> 00:56:05,119
her grandfather giving last rites to an

1716
00:56:08,789 --> 00:56:07,440
alien creature but that story is based

1717
00:56:10,390 --> 00:56:08,799
on second-hand

1718
00:56:11,829 --> 00:56:10,400
testimony there's two second-hand

1719
00:56:13,349 --> 00:56:11,839
witnesses there's no first-hand

1720
00:56:16,390 --> 00:56:13,359
witnesses for it

1721
00:56:18,710 --> 00:56:16,400
um you know there's others that clearly

1722
00:56:19,990 --> 00:56:18,720
was some kind of experimental rocket had

1723
00:56:20,710 --> 00:56:20,000
gone astray

1724
00:56:21,430 --> 00:56:20,720
that's

1725
00:56:23,510 --> 00:56:21,440
uh

1726
00:56:25,589 --> 00:56:23,520
listed in the crash i used to say there

1727
00:56:28,390 --> 00:56:25,599
was there was a handful

1728
00:56:30,230 --> 00:56:28,400
four or five good stories the las vegas

1729
00:56:32,789 --> 00:56:30,240
from 1962

1730
00:56:35,750 --> 00:56:32,799
um i'm convinced that that was ebola

1731
00:56:38,230 --> 00:56:35,760
light as well now based on

1732
00:56:40,390 --> 00:56:38,240
my interviews with quite a few people

1733
00:56:42,829 --> 00:56:40,400
involved in in that story now

1734
00:56:46,069 --> 00:56:42,839
interesting aside is

1735
00:56:47,270 --> 00:56:46,079
the when i was starting the

1736
00:56:49,109 --> 00:56:47,280
uh

1737
00:56:51,430 --> 00:56:49,119
the investigation

1738
00:56:54,069 --> 00:56:51,440
and i forget the guy's name he was a

1739
00:56:55,910 --> 00:56:54,079
photographer for the um

1740
00:56:57,589 --> 00:56:55,920
review journal

1741
00:57:00,870 --> 00:56:57,599
and on april

1742
00:57:02,630 --> 00:57:00,880
19th april 20th of 1962 when this

1743
00:57:04,549 --> 00:57:02,640
brilliant red explosion flares in las

1744
00:57:06,069 --> 00:57:04,559
vegas sky

1745
00:57:07,030 --> 00:57:06,079
when that story broke

1746
00:57:08,470 --> 00:57:07,040
um

1747
00:57:09,910 --> 00:57:08,480
that guy was a photographer for the

1748
00:57:11,670 --> 00:57:09,920
newspaper so he wrote about his

1749
00:57:14,230 --> 00:57:11,680
observations

1750
00:57:17,030 --> 00:57:14,240
so i called the review journal

1751
00:57:17,910 --> 00:57:17,040
and i was talking to the reporter there

1752
00:57:21,430 --> 00:57:17,920
and

1753
00:57:22,710 --> 00:57:21,440
were just hilarious one of them was well

1754
00:57:23,910 --> 00:57:22,720
you can't believe everything you read in

1755
00:57:25,510 --> 00:57:23,920
the paper

1756
00:57:27,190 --> 00:57:25,520
and i'm thinking what a wonderful

1757
00:57:28,870 --> 00:57:27,200
attitude for a reporter remind me not to

1758
00:57:31,030 --> 00:57:28,880
buy your paper again since we can't

1759
00:57:32,549 --> 00:57:31,040
believe everything you put in it

1760
00:57:34,150 --> 00:57:32,559
and um

1761
00:57:35,270 --> 00:57:34,160
i asked about the guy and she says he

1762
00:57:37,190 --> 00:57:35,280
doesn't work here and i don't know where

1763
00:57:38,789 --> 00:57:37,200
he is i got out the las vegas phone book

1764
00:57:40,230 --> 00:57:38,799
and it was a photographer by that name

1765
00:57:41,430 --> 00:57:40,240
in town so i called him and it was the

1766
00:57:42,710 --> 00:57:41,440
right guy

1767
00:57:44,470 --> 00:57:42,720
really really a nice piece of

1768
00:57:46,230 --> 00:57:44,480
investigative work on my part looked him

1769
00:57:47,670 --> 00:57:46,240
up in the phone book and called him

1770
00:57:49,270 --> 00:57:47,680
and talked to him and he didn't remember

1771
00:57:50,390 --> 00:57:49,280
much about it he just would confirm what

1772
00:57:51,670 --> 00:57:50,400
was in the newspaper what he'd written

1773
00:57:53,670 --> 00:57:51,680
the newspaper which is brilliant red

1774
00:57:55,829 --> 00:57:53,680
explosion in the sky but what struck me

1775
00:57:57,430 --> 00:57:55,839
as hilarious was that reporter you can't

1776
00:57:59,990 --> 00:57:57,440
believe what you read in the newspaper

1777
00:58:01,670 --> 00:58:00,000
talked to earl butts who was a um

1778
00:58:03,829 --> 00:58:01,680
sheriff's deputy a lieutenant in the

1779
00:58:05,750 --> 00:58:03,839
sheriff's department in 1962 and he ran

1780
00:58:08,230 --> 00:58:05,760
the rescue team and they went out east

1781
00:58:11,190 --> 00:58:08,240
of uh las vegas toward uh

1782
00:58:12,069 --> 00:58:11,200
mesquite and didn't find anything out

1783
00:58:14,549 --> 00:58:12,079
there

1784
00:58:16,150 --> 00:58:14,559
george knapp talked to um

1785
00:58:17,829 --> 00:58:16,160
talked to walter butt it was george

1786
00:58:19,829 --> 00:58:17,839
knapp was always going to send copies of

1787
00:58:20,710 --> 00:58:19,839
his interview with him he hasn't done it

1788
00:58:22,789 --> 00:58:20,720
yet

1789
00:58:24,710 --> 00:58:22,799
but the point simply is

1790
00:58:26,309 --> 00:58:24,720
i i just don't think the things are

1791
00:58:27,589 --> 00:58:26,319
raining out of the sky because if they

1792
00:58:29,510 --> 00:58:27,599
were we'd be having a whole different

1793
00:58:31,109 --> 00:58:29,520
conversation because

1794
00:58:32,150 --> 00:58:31,119
ultimately something would have fallen

1795
00:58:33,670 --> 00:58:32,160
where somebody could have gotten their

1796
00:58:34,710 --> 00:58:33,680
hands on it we would it would have been

1797
00:58:37,990 --> 00:58:34,720
front page

1798
00:58:40,549 --> 00:58:38,000
story somewhere um i'm a literary the

1799
00:58:43,990 --> 00:58:40,559
kecksburg's crash now after all i've

1800
00:58:45,030 --> 00:58:44,000
seen i hesitate to say that because

1801
00:58:47,829 --> 00:58:45,040
um

1802
00:58:50,390 --> 00:58:47,839
the fellows who've done the the

1803
00:58:52,069 --> 00:58:50,400
investigations there and they've done a

1804
00:58:54,549 --> 00:58:52,079
marvelous job of seeking out of

1805
00:58:56,870 --> 00:58:54,559
witnesses and that sort of thing

1806
00:59:00,549 --> 00:58:56,880
but it just um

1807
00:59:02,549 --> 00:59:00,559
it just doesn't strike me as is

1808
00:59:05,829 --> 00:59:02,559
legitimate i think that might have been

1809
00:59:07,270 --> 00:59:05,839
a meteor there is a photograph of what's

1810
00:59:09,030 --> 00:59:07,280
called the smoke train from a meteor

1811
00:59:11,030 --> 00:59:09,040
that passed over the area about the same

1812
00:59:12,390 --> 00:59:11,040
time which is good evidence and debris

1813
00:59:13,829 --> 00:59:12,400
from the meteor was found i think in

1814
00:59:16,950 --> 00:59:13,839
southern canada

1815
00:59:19,190 --> 00:59:16,960
so it makes me wonder about that

1816
00:59:21,349 --> 00:59:19,200
about that story

1817
00:59:23,109 --> 00:59:21,359
um

1818
00:59:24,549 --> 00:59:23,119
i i look at shag harbor and i don't

1819
00:59:26,710 --> 00:59:24,559
think of that as a crash so much as an

1820
00:59:29,829 --> 00:59:26,720
emergency landing and that was one where

1821
00:59:32,789 --> 00:59:29,839
the in october of 1968 the thing fell

1822
00:59:33,990 --> 00:59:32,799
into shag harbor in canada the condom

1823
00:59:36,549 --> 00:59:34,000
committee which was the university of

1824
00:59:38,740 --> 00:59:36,559
colorado study of ufos commissioned by

1825
00:59:39,910 --> 00:59:38,750
the air force i might point out

1826
00:59:41,430 --> 00:59:39,920
[Music]

1827
00:59:42,789 --> 00:59:41,440
they were

1828
00:59:44,870 --> 00:59:42,799
called about it

1829
00:59:46,549 --> 00:59:44,880
and they their their response was just a

1830
00:59:48,069 --> 00:59:46,559
couple of teenagers were not interested

1831
00:59:49,750 --> 00:59:48,079
i'm thinking you know you've got an

1832
00:59:51,190 --> 00:59:49,760
opportunity maybe you couldn't couldn't

1833
00:59:53,510 --> 00:59:51,200
go outside the united states and have

1834
00:59:55,750 --> 00:59:53,520
the budget to work like that but

1835
00:59:57,430 --> 00:59:55,760
there were there were mounties involved

1836
00:59:59,270 --> 00:59:57,440
there were a lot of witnesses involved

1837
01:00:01,030 --> 00:59:59,280
there was a photograph

1838
01:00:02,710 --> 01:00:01,040
it wasn't just a couple of teenagers

1839
01:00:04,309 --> 01:00:02,720
calling in and the the object was

1840
01:00:05,910 --> 01:00:04,319
apparently underwater for a number of

1841
01:00:07,109 --> 01:00:05,920
days and then it was seen to leave the

1842
01:00:08,630 --> 01:00:07,119
area as if

1843
01:00:10,950 --> 01:00:08,640
it had been repaired and they got out of

1844
01:00:13,109 --> 01:00:10,960
there it's on an official coin now in

1845
01:00:14,789 --> 01:00:13,119
canada we actually have that shag carbon

1846
01:00:16,390 --> 01:00:14,799
official coin

1847
01:00:18,470 --> 01:00:16,400
uh and i think that's a very important

1848
01:00:20,789 --> 01:00:18,480
chris styles and uh don ledger have done

1849
01:00:22,789 --> 01:00:20,799
a wonderful job of investigating that

1850
01:00:23,610 --> 01:00:22,799
stan gordon for the for the kecksburg

1851
01:00:25,190 --> 01:00:23,620
case um

1852
01:00:26,710 --> 01:00:25,200
[Music]

1853
01:00:28,150 --> 01:00:26,720
stan has done a wonderful job of

1854
01:00:31,670 --> 01:00:28,160
investigating gathered a lot of

1855
01:00:33,030 --> 01:00:31,680
information i just think that he's

1856
01:00:34,789 --> 01:00:33,040
jumped to a conclusion that is not

1857
01:00:36,710 --> 01:00:34,799
warranted by the evidence presented

1858
01:00:38,870 --> 01:00:36,720
there but you know i appreciate the work

1859
01:00:40,230 --> 01:00:38,880
he's done it and i always hesitate to

1860
01:00:42,870 --> 01:00:40,240
say anything about

1861
01:00:44,230 --> 01:00:42,880
about kecksburg because you know i i

1862
01:00:46,069 --> 01:00:44,240
respect the work that he has done but

1863
01:00:48,870 --> 01:00:46,079
the shag harbors and points so you know

1864
01:00:51,030 --> 01:00:48,880
we've we've got four cases there that

1865
01:00:53,349 --> 01:00:51,040
look good roswell

1866
01:00:56,069 --> 01:00:53,359
i think las vegas is explained uh

1867
01:00:57,910 --> 01:00:56,079
kecksburg has probably explained and

1868
01:00:59,510 --> 01:00:57,920
shag harbor is not explained so there's

1869
01:01:00,950 --> 01:00:59,520
four good cases

1870
01:01:02,870 --> 01:01:00,960
but the rest of them are single

1871
01:01:04,710 --> 01:01:02,880
witnesses or

1872
01:01:06,309 --> 01:01:04,720
the stories don't hold together the del

1873
01:01:08,069 --> 01:01:06,319
rio case

1874
01:01:09,750 --> 01:01:08,079
which was told by a guy named robert

1875
01:01:12,950 --> 01:01:09,760
willingham and i think we all accepted

1876
01:01:15,190 --> 01:01:12,960
it i think um i did a book um

1877
01:01:16,870 --> 01:01:15,200
a history of ufo crashes at one point in

1878
01:01:18,309 --> 01:01:16,880
the mid 1990s

1879
01:01:19,670 --> 01:01:18,319
and i talk about the del rio case

1880
01:01:21,829 --> 01:01:19,680
because i got an affidavit from an air

1881
01:01:23,670 --> 01:01:21,839
force colonel attesting to

1882
01:01:26,390 --> 01:01:23,680
what happened there

1883
01:01:27,829 --> 01:01:26,400
and so as i was putting together crash

1884
01:01:28,950 --> 01:01:27,839
and i was looking at this stuff and i

1885
01:01:30,470 --> 01:01:28,960
thought well let's see what's on the

1886
01:01:32,710 --> 01:01:30,480
internet now because when i was putting

1887
01:01:34,230 --> 01:01:32,720
together a history of ufo crashes we

1888
01:01:35,829 --> 01:01:34,240
didn't have the internet the way we have

1889
01:01:37,589 --> 01:01:35,839
the internet today

1890
01:01:39,190 --> 01:01:37,599
and found

1891
01:01:41,430 --> 01:01:39,200
a lot of information about robert

1892
01:01:43,430 --> 01:01:41,440
willingham

1893
01:01:45,349 --> 01:01:43,440
and so i began to looking into that and

1894
01:01:47,190 --> 01:01:45,359
discovered willingham was not a credible

1895
01:01:48,630 --> 01:01:47,200
source

1896
01:01:52,230 --> 01:01:48,640
i

1897
01:01:54,069 --> 01:01:52,240
colonel

1898
01:01:55,670 --> 01:01:54,079
his military career nobody got his

1899
01:01:57,270 --> 01:01:55,680
records everybody assumed somebody else

1900
01:01:58,230 --> 01:01:57,280
had gotten them after the affidavit was

1901
01:02:00,710 --> 01:01:58,240
signed

1902
01:02:02,150 --> 01:02:00,720
and so i got him and it turned out he

1903
01:02:03,990 --> 01:02:02,160
had been a rather

1904
01:02:05,510 --> 01:02:04,000
relatively low-ranking enlisted soldier

1905
01:02:06,789 --> 01:02:05,520
he claimed to be a veteran of world war

1906
01:02:09,109 --> 01:02:06,799
ii

1907
01:02:10,789 --> 01:02:09,119
on the technicality

1908
01:02:13,990 --> 01:02:10,799
after

1909
01:02:16,789 --> 01:02:14,000
ve day and bj day i think september

1910
01:02:19,190 --> 01:02:16,799
september of 1945 the war is officially

1911
01:02:21,829 --> 01:02:19,200
over in both

1912
01:02:24,470 --> 01:02:21,839
pacific and in europe uh may 8th i think

1913
01:02:26,230 --> 01:02:24,480
1945 for europe

1914
01:02:28,230 --> 01:02:26,240
uh the war wasn't officially declared

1915
01:02:30,230 --> 01:02:28,240
over until the middle of 1946. so

1916
01:02:34,230 --> 01:02:30,240
anybody that has served after

1917
01:02:37,190 --> 01:02:34,240
the surrenders of both germany and japan

1918
01:02:39,349 --> 01:02:37,200
were considered veterans of world war ii

1919
01:02:41,430 --> 01:02:39,359
willingham got into it in december of

1920
01:02:45,270 --> 01:02:41,440
1940 he joined the army in december of

1921
01:02:48,870 --> 01:02:45,280
1945 was discharged in january of 1947.

1922
01:02:50,789 --> 01:02:48,880
he was in the army for what 13 months

1923
01:02:52,390 --> 01:02:50,799
no other military record for that he

1924
01:02:53,589 --> 01:02:52,400
produced documentation it's clearly

1925
01:02:55,430 --> 01:02:53,599
forged

1926
01:02:56,870 --> 01:02:55,440
we checked it out people say well i got

1927
01:02:59,029 --> 01:02:56,880
pictures of him in his uniform in the

1928
01:03:01,670 --> 01:02:59,039
mid-1960s how do you explain that i said

1929
01:03:03,430 --> 01:03:01,680
send me the pictures which they did i

1930
01:03:04,950 --> 01:03:03,440
looked at it i had been

1931
01:03:06,470 --> 01:03:04,960
in high school i've been a member of the

1932
01:03:07,589 --> 01:03:06,480
civil air patrol i know if you guys are

1933
01:03:09,589 --> 01:03:07,599
familiar with it it's an official

1934
01:03:11,510 --> 01:03:09,599
auxiliary of the air force

1935
01:03:13,670 --> 01:03:11,520
um

1936
01:03:15,190 --> 01:03:13,680
they do search search and rescue for the

1937
01:03:16,950 --> 01:03:15,200
air force

1938
01:03:18,710 --> 01:03:16,960
free up a lot of

1939
01:03:20,150 --> 01:03:18,720
military assets

1940
01:03:21,990 --> 01:03:20,160
do a wonderful job on that they have a

1941
01:03:23,430 --> 01:03:22,000
cadet program you know training people

1942
01:03:26,390 --> 01:03:23,440
in aviation getting interested in

1943
01:03:28,309 --> 01:03:26,400
aviation and that sort of thing

1944
01:03:30,390 --> 01:03:28,319
well-respected organization

1945
01:03:31,430 --> 01:03:30,400
but they wear air force uniforms

1946
01:03:34,549 --> 01:03:31,440
and they wear

1947
01:03:35,829 --> 01:03:34,559
air force rank insignia but instead of

1948
01:03:37,990 --> 01:03:35,839
wearing us

1949
01:03:39,829 --> 01:03:38,000
on on the uh lapels of their uniform

1950
01:03:41,349 --> 01:03:39,839
they wear cap

1951
01:03:43,430 --> 01:03:41,359
and there's a metal plate they wear over

1952
01:03:45,270 --> 01:03:43,440
their one pocket that says

1953
01:03:46,789 --> 01:03:45,280
civil air patrol auxiliary of the united

1954
01:03:47,990 --> 01:03:46,799
states air force so it's clear now they

1955
01:03:48,710 --> 01:03:48,000
have their own ribbons and that sort of

1956
01:03:51,190 --> 01:03:48,720
thing

1957
01:03:53,349 --> 01:03:51,200
so i looked at the picture of willingham

1958
01:03:54,789 --> 01:03:53,359
in his air force uniform and discovered

1959
01:03:56,549 --> 01:03:54,799
it's not an air force uniform it's a

1960
01:03:58,950 --> 01:03:56,559
c.a.p uniform

1961
01:04:01,910 --> 01:03:58,960
not really the same thing

1962
01:04:03,910 --> 01:04:01,920
uh so that's how we explain it in the um

1963
01:04:05,990 --> 01:04:03,920
cap you can wear your military awards

1964
01:04:08,710 --> 01:04:06,000
and decorations

1965
01:04:10,630 --> 01:04:08,720
on your uniform along with your cap

1966
01:04:12,150 --> 01:04:10,640
awards and decorations the military

1967
01:04:13,349 --> 01:04:12,160
decorations take a higher precedence of

1968
01:04:15,029 --> 01:04:13,359
course

1969
01:04:16,150 --> 01:04:15,039
you are not allowed to wear your c.a.p

1970
01:04:18,230 --> 01:04:16,160
ribbons

1971
01:04:19,750 --> 01:04:18,240
on your air force uniform

1972
01:04:21,430 --> 01:04:19,760
it's not recognized by the air force

1973
01:04:23,029 --> 01:04:21,440
well the pictures of willingham i got

1974
01:04:24,549 --> 01:04:23,039
one in his class a uniform with all his

1975
01:04:26,710 --> 01:04:24,559
awards and decorations some of which he

1976
01:04:28,470 --> 01:04:26,720
was never authorized to wear it's got

1977
01:04:30,150 --> 01:04:28,480
his cap

1978
01:04:31,990 --> 01:04:30,160
ribbons on it well that's one clue

1979
01:04:33,910 --> 01:04:32,000
another clue the

1980
01:04:36,870 --> 01:04:33,920
distinctive insignia on the blue uniform

1981
01:04:38,789 --> 01:04:36,880
he's wearing this has a lapel insignia

1982
01:04:40,950 --> 01:04:38,799
remove the cap but you can actually in

1983
01:04:42,069 --> 01:04:40,960
the photograph if you blow it up large

1984
01:04:45,270 --> 01:04:42,079
enough you can see where the holes are

1985
01:04:48,710 --> 01:04:47,430
he's wearing cap wings instead of air

1986
01:04:50,630 --> 01:04:48,720
force wings

1987
01:04:53,190 --> 01:04:50,640
i looked his um

1988
01:04:55,109 --> 01:04:53,200
faa record up he's got a private pilot's

1989
01:04:56,870 --> 01:04:55,119
license

1990
01:04:57,990 --> 01:04:56,880
or had a private pilot he's passed away

1991
01:05:00,789 --> 01:04:58,000
of course

1992
01:05:03,589 --> 01:05:00,799
i know of no military pilot

1993
01:05:05,670 --> 01:05:03,599
who has a private pilot's license and i

1994
01:05:07,670 --> 01:05:05,680
can say this with great authority

1995
01:05:11,750 --> 01:05:07,680
once we finish flight school in the army

1996
01:05:13,510 --> 01:05:11,760
i had 210 212 hours of flight time

1997
01:05:14,710 --> 01:05:13,520
we were told just before we went on

1998
01:05:16,230 --> 01:05:14,720
leave

1999
01:05:18,069 --> 01:05:16,240
if you want to stay over a day or two

2000
01:05:19,910 --> 01:05:18,079
the faa will be giving a course on

2001
01:05:20,950 --> 01:05:19,920
regulations

2002
01:05:23,029 --> 01:05:20,960
and

2003
01:05:24,789 --> 01:05:23,039
you take a test at the end of this a 50

2004
01:05:26,549 --> 01:05:24,799
50 question test and if you pass it

2005
01:05:29,029 --> 01:05:26,559
you'll be issued a commercial pilot's

2006
01:05:31,910 --> 01:05:29,039
license

2007
01:05:33,430 --> 01:05:31,920
every military pilot can go take a 50

2008
01:05:35,190 --> 01:05:33,440
question test

2009
01:05:37,270 --> 01:05:35,200
and get a commercial pilot's license i

2010
01:05:39,349 --> 01:05:37,280
know this because i did it

2011
01:05:41,109 --> 01:05:39,359
once i got out of the army

2012
01:05:43,589 --> 01:05:41,119
and i was um

2013
01:05:45,670 --> 01:05:43,599
i think after my first

2014
01:05:48,069 --> 01:05:45,680
semester in college or my yeah my first

2015
01:05:49,430 --> 01:05:48,079
semester in college i was on the way

2016
01:05:51,349 --> 01:05:49,440
to

2017
01:05:52,789 --> 01:05:51,359
uh home

2018
01:05:56,230 --> 01:05:52,799
and i stopped off in des moines to the

2019
01:05:58,710 --> 01:05:56,240
faa office i went in and presented my

2020
01:06:00,069 --> 01:05:58,720
military document showing i had at that

2021
01:06:03,430 --> 01:06:00,079
point

2022
01:06:04,390 --> 01:06:03,440
1600 hours including 1200 combat flight

2023
01:06:07,109 --> 01:06:04,400
time

2024
01:06:09,829 --> 01:06:07,119
um and you know the certificates showing

2025
01:06:12,710 --> 01:06:09,839
that i graduated from the flight school

2026
01:06:15,270 --> 01:06:12,720
i was given this 50 question test

2027
01:06:17,990 --> 01:06:15,280
i barely passed i don't mind saying that

2028
01:06:20,630 --> 01:06:18,000
because i passed and was issued my

2029
01:06:22,390 --> 01:06:20,640
commercial pilot's license

2030
01:06:24,789 --> 01:06:22,400
there was no way that willingham as a

2031
01:06:26,630 --> 01:06:24,799
military pilot

2032
01:06:27,829 --> 01:06:26,640
would have a private pilot's license he

2033
01:06:30,069 --> 01:06:27,839
would have had a commercial pilot's

2034
01:06:32,390 --> 01:06:30,079
license that was another clue for me so

2035
01:06:35,029 --> 01:06:32,400
the willingham affidavit blew up

2036
01:06:38,470 --> 01:06:35,039
so the dale real crash blows up

2037
01:06:41,349 --> 01:06:38,480
then i discovered there was a um

2038
01:06:43,990 --> 01:06:41,359
report in the what the forerunner of the

2039
01:06:46,549 --> 01:06:44,000
mufon journal it was skyla their

2040
01:06:48,390 --> 01:06:46,559
original magazine and he was interviewed

2041
01:06:49,430 --> 01:06:48,400
in that magazine

2042
01:06:53,589 --> 01:06:49,440
on

2043
01:06:55,029 --> 01:06:53,599
paragraph about him

2044
01:06:56,789 --> 01:06:55,039
identifying him as a lieutenant colonel

2045
01:06:57,829 --> 01:06:56,799
in the c.a.p and he tells the story of

2046
01:07:00,069 --> 01:06:57,839
this

2047
01:07:02,069 --> 01:07:00,079
crash that he had witnessed

2048
01:07:03,750 --> 01:07:02,079
this if any witness

2049
01:07:05,750 --> 01:07:03,760
completely different from what he told

2050
01:07:08,309 --> 01:07:05,760
to lend springfield what he told to

2051
01:07:11,670 --> 01:07:08,319
others later what he told to me

2052
01:07:14,950 --> 01:07:11,680
he forgot i'd talk to the guy

2053
01:07:16,870 --> 01:07:14,960
so the del rio crash

2054
01:07:18,950 --> 01:07:16,880
is is bogus

2055
01:07:22,230 --> 01:07:18,960
and what and and you say well what's the

2056
01:07:23,990 --> 01:07:22,240
importance of that remember mj 12

2057
01:07:26,549 --> 01:07:24,000
there's a paragraph in mj 12 about the

2058
01:07:28,549 --> 01:07:26,559
crash near el guerrero in l india and

2059
01:07:30,309 --> 01:07:28,559
guerrero new mexico this is the del rio

2060
01:07:32,390 --> 01:07:30,319
crash it came from

2061
01:07:33,750 --> 01:07:32,400
roger willingham roger willingham robert

2062
01:07:36,150 --> 01:07:33,760
willingham

2063
01:07:37,829 --> 01:07:36,160
and uh it's completely bogus

2064
01:07:40,309 --> 01:07:37,839
so you have to ask yourself if this is a

2065
01:07:43,270 --> 01:07:40,319
highly classified document

2066
01:07:44,309 --> 01:07:43,280
created in 1952 for the president

2067
01:07:48,309 --> 01:07:44,319
and

2068
01:07:50,710 --> 01:07:48,319
didn't come about until

2069
01:07:52,150 --> 01:07:50,720
1968 how did that make it into this

2070
01:07:54,390 --> 01:07:52,160
document

2071
01:07:56,309 --> 01:07:54,400
there was no crash in del rio

2072
01:07:58,870 --> 01:07:56,319
and that means that that's the poison

2073
01:08:01,430 --> 01:07:58,880
pill in the mj-12 document

2074
01:08:03,510 --> 01:08:01,440
willingham's story was bogus but but the

2075
01:08:05,190 --> 01:08:03,520
people who created the mj12 document

2076
01:08:06,630 --> 01:08:05,200
thought it was good because we all

2077
01:08:09,270 --> 01:08:06,640
thought it was good

2078
01:08:10,870 --> 01:08:09,280
until 2010 when i began looking into the

2079
01:08:13,029 --> 01:08:10,880
background of willingham and discovered

2080
01:08:14,150 --> 01:08:13,039
that he wasn't who he said he was

2081
01:08:15,510 --> 01:08:14,160
by the way the reason i bring up

2082
01:08:17,030 --> 01:08:15,520
willingham because we were mentioning

2083
01:08:19,669 --> 01:08:17,040
other crashes he eventually talked about

2084
01:08:20,470 --> 01:08:19,679
having been involved in seven crashes he

2085
01:08:23,349 --> 01:08:20,480
was

2086
01:08:24,709 --> 01:08:23,359
pennsylvania one day and a farmer

2087
01:08:26,309 --> 01:08:24,719
stopped him and

2088
01:08:27,829 --> 01:08:26,319
took him over to show him a crashed ufo

2089
01:08:29,269 --> 01:08:27,839
i'm thinking i've driven down an awful

2090
01:08:31,189 --> 01:08:29,279
lot of back roads in an awful lot of

2091
01:08:33,110 --> 01:08:31,199
states no farmers ever stopped me to

2092
01:08:34,630 --> 01:08:33,120
show me a crashed ufo

2093
01:08:36,789 --> 01:08:34,640
you know what are the odds he would be

2094
01:08:38,789 --> 01:08:36,799
involved in two of them

2095
01:08:40,149 --> 01:08:38,799
and so he but he was talking about seven

2096
01:08:41,829 --> 01:08:40,159
of them he was involved in he was

2097
01:08:43,749 --> 01:08:41,839
talking about all this stuff and and the

2098
01:08:45,990 --> 01:08:43,759
names he named everybody he named would

2099
01:08:48,070 --> 01:08:46,000
conveniently did we couldn't get to him

2100
01:08:50,149 --> 01:08:48,080
he showed me a document

2101
01:08:51,829 --> 01:08:50,159
um

2102
01:08:53,990 --> 01:08:51,839
that showed he had retired as lieutenant

2103
01:08:54,870 --> 01:08:54,000
colonel from the air force

2104
01:08:57,030 --> 01:08:54,880
so

2105
01:08:58,550 --> 01:08:57,040
i had his military records

2106
01:09:00,470 --> 01:08:58,560
but i know those records are sometimes

2107
01:09:02,070 --> 01:09:00,480
incomplete they're the ones you get from

2108
01:09:03,749 --> 01:09:02,080
st louis

2109
01:09:05,749 --> 01:09:03,759
there was the was it the air reserve

2110
01:09:07,669 --> 01:09:05,759
personnel center

2111
01:09:09,349 --> 01:09:07,679
personnel res air reserve personnel

2112
01:09:11,749 --> 01:09:09,359
center it was in in denver still in

2113
01:09:13,430 --> 01:09:11,759
denver i got a hold of the people there

2114
01:09:15,590 --> 01:09:13,440
and i sent him a copy of the document

2115
01:09:17,269 --> 01:09:15,600
they said this isn't ours it's been

2116
01:09:19,189 --> 01:09:17,279
altered

2117
01:09:21,430 --> 01:09:19,199
and so i mean he was

2118
01:09:23,189 --> 01:09:21,440
they could find no record of him being a

2119
01:09:25,189 --> 01:09:23,199
um

2120
01:09:26,950 --> 01:09:25,199
air force person he actually had the

2121
01:09:28,709 --> 01:09:26,960
gall to go to

2122
01:09:30,870 --> 01:09:28,719
his congressional representatives i know

2123
01:09:33,269 --> 01:09:30,880
the senator representative

2124
01:09:35,349 --> 01:09:33,279
with his civil air patrol documents

2125
01:09:37,349 --> 01:09:35,359
attempting to prove that he should get a

2126
01:09:39,189 --> 01:09:37,359
military pension

2127
01:09:41,030 --> 01:09:39,199
and it never worked out well for him he

2128
01:09:43,349 --> 01:09:41,040
didn't get a pension

2129
01:09:44,950 --> 01:09:43,359
but the point simply is

2130
01:09:47,030 --> 01:09:44,960
that's the kind of thing we we run into

2131
01:09:49,910 --> 01:09:47,040
when we start looking at the crashed

2132
01:09:51,189 --> 01:09:49,920
ufos there are so many of them

2133
01:09:52,470 --> 01:09:51,199
you know willingham turned out to be

2134
01:09:53,990 --> 01:09:52,480
single witness even though he named

2135
01:09:55,910 --> 01:09:54,000
other names and could never find them

2136
01:09:57,669 --> 01:09:55,920
and a lot of them

2137
01:09:59,270 --> 01:09:57,679
work out that way

2138
01:10:01,590 --> 01:09:59,280
well there's a lot of people within that

2139
01:10:03,350 --> 01:10:01,600
community or within the ufo community

2140
01:10:05,350 --> 01:10:03,360
that claim things and

2141
01:10:07,350 --> 01:10:05,360
eventually gets vetted out that they're

2142
01:10:10,229 --> 01:10:07,360
liars or they start adding to their

2143
01:10:12,070 --> 01:10:10,239
stories so unfortunately that

2144
01:10:13,750 --> 01:10:12,080
it sucks when uh it comes down to an

2145
01:10:15,590 --> 01:10:13,760
investigator like yourself that spends

2146
01:10:17,750 --> 01:10:15,600
time and money trying to investigate

2147
01:10:19,430 --> 01:10:17,760
these things only to

2148
01:10:21,510 --> 01:10:19,440
realize that you wasted your time the

2149
01:10:22,870 --> 01:10:21,520
person is just out there to get uh

2150
01:10:25,990 --> 01:10:22,880
trying to get known or trying to get

2151
01:10:28,709 --> 01:10:26,000
famous i never see the investigations as

2152
01:10:30,310 --> 01:10:28,719
wasting time if we can if we can verify

2153
01:10:31,750 --> 01:10:30,320
the information that's all well and good

2154
01:10:33,830 --> 01:10:31,760
but if we can we find out that the

2155
01:10:35,830 --> 01:10:33,840
person is not telling the truth that is

2156
01:10:37,830 --> 01:10:35,840
equally important in some cases we

2157
01:10:40,470 --> 01:10:37,840
remove this from our

2158
01:10:42,870 --> 01:10:40,480
discussion of ufos they should be

2159
01:10:45,990 --> 01:10:42,880
reduced to a footnote

2160
01:10:48,390 --> 01:10:46,000
i i think of of um

2161
01:10:49,830 --> 01:10:48,400
of gerald anderson guy who said he was

2162
01:10:52,149 --> 01:10:49,840
over on the plains of san august and saw

2163
01:10:53,430 --> 01:10:52,159
the craft with barney barnett

2164
01:10:59,430 --> 01:10:53,440
um

2165
01:11:01,030 --> 01:10:59,440
should be reduced to a footnote

2166
01:11:02,550 --> 01:11:01,040
you know acknowledge that he told the

2167
01:11:03,350 --> 01:11:02,560
story but acknowledged that it wasn't

2168
01:11:04,870 --> 01:11:03,360
true

2169
01:11:06,310 --> 01:11:04,880
right and there was never any evidence

2170
01:11:08,550 --> 01:11:06,320
that was true and he changed his story

2171
01:11:09,750 --> 01:11:08,560
radically in fact created documents

2172
01:11:11,110 --> 01:11:09,760
tried to

2173
01:11:12,709 --> 01:11:11,120
try to

2174
01:11:15,590 --> 01:11:12,719
tried to smear me

2175
01:11:17,910 --> 01:11:15,600
by claiming what was it um

2176
01:11:19,590 --> 01:11:17,920
oh i had i i

2177
01:11:22,470 --> 01:11:19,600
published information about saying that

2178
01:11:24,550 --> 01:11:22,480
i'd spoken to him for 56 minutes

2179
01:11:26,870 --> 01:11:24,560
and he said no i was only 26 minutes and

2180
01:11:28,390 --> 01:11:26,880
he produced his phone bill to prove it

2181
01:11:30,310 --> 01:11:28,400
well since the phone call was to my

2182
01:11:32,630 --> 01:11:30,320
phone bill and it was before everybody

2183
01:11:34,149 --> 01:11:32,640
was worried about identity theft and we

2184
01:11:37,189 --> 01:11:34,159
had the same

2185
01:11:38,790 --> 01:11:37,199
baby bell southwestern bell

2186
01:11:40,630 --> 01:11:38,800
uh for all new youngsters that bell

2187
01:11:43,270 --> 01:11:40,640
telephone used to be the big deal on

2188
01:11:46,870 --> 01:11:43,280
telephone calls and not all these

2189
01:11:48,550 --> 01:11:46,880
wi-fi cell phone deals going on anyhow i

2190
01:11:50,630 --> 01:11:48,560
went to the local

2191
01:11:54,149 --> 01:11:50,640
southwestern bell with the phone bill

2192
01:11:55,590 --> 01:11:54,159
and since it was to my phone number

2193
01:11:56,950 --> 01:11:55,600
they pulled their records and gave them

2194
01:11:59,590 --> 01:11:56,960
to me

2195
01:12:01,189 --> 01:11:59,600
and so i could see that yes it was 56

2196
01:12:03,270 --> 01:12:01,199
minutes

2197
01:12:06,790 --> 01:12:03,280
to me so i had the document from bell

2198
01:12:08,470 --> 01:12:06,800
that and i think it was

2199
01:12:09,990 --> 01:12:08,480
one of the investigators

2200
01:12:12,630 --> 01:12:10,000
john carpenter

2201
01:12:14,709 --> 01:12:12,640
had sent me the phone bill that car that

2202
01:12:16,310 --> 01:12:14,719
uh anderson had given him during the 26

2203
01:12:17,990 --> 01:12:16,320
minutes and his responsible maybe your

2204
01:12:20,149 --> 01:12:18,000
tape report quarter was running slowly

2205
01:12:22,870 --> 01:12:20,159
no my tape recorder wasn't running

2206
01:12:25,189 --> 01:12:24,070
so

2207
01:12:26,709 --> 01:12:25,199
they uh

2208
01:12:27,750 --> 01:12:26,719
we finally got him on this we did an

2209
01:12:29,910 --> 01:12:27,760
article

2210
01:12:31,110 --> 01:12:29,920
and i think it was jerry clark somebody

2211
01:12:32,630 --> 01:12:31,120
mentioned that the name should be

2212
01:12:35,669 --> 01:12:32,640
missing time because there was this

2213
01:12:37,990 --> 01:12:35,679
missing 26 minutes on the phone

2214
01:12:39,510 --> 01:12:38,000
and um so we did the article we laid out

2215
01:12:41,350 --> 01:12:39,520
all the evidence in that and then

2216
01:12:42,630 --> 01:12:41,360
anderson eventually confessed that he

2217
01:12:43,750 --> 01:12:42,640
had made up the phone bill to make me

2218
01:12:45,270 --> 01:12:43,760
look bad

2219
01:12:48,310 --> 01:12:45,280
and of course all he did was make him

2220
01:12:50,950 --> 01:12:48,320
look bad because we were able to

2221
01:12:53,590 --> 01:12:50,960
crack the code so to speak and got him

2222
01:12:55,030 --> 01:12:53,600
to talk about how uh he had forged this

2223
01:12:56,390 --> 01:12:55,040
document and then then it came out that

2224
01:12:59,030 --> 01:12:56,400
he'd forged like four or five other

2225
01:13:00,790 --> 01:12:59,040
documents so his testimony class

2226
01:13:02,310 --> 01:13:00,800
but it's important you know here was he

2227
01:13:05,189 --> 01:13:02,320
was a guy who was confirming the bonnie

2228
01:13:06,229 --> 01:13:05,199
barnett end of the roswell caves barney

2229
01:13:08,390 --> 01:13:06,239
barnett over the plain of saint

2230
01:13:09,189 --> 01:13:08,400
augustine seeing the crash saucer over

2231
01:13:10,870 --> 01:13:09,199
there

2232
01:13:13,030 --> 01:13:10,880
if barnett saw any craft saucer it

2233
01:13:14,149 --> 01:13:13,040
wasn't in 1947

2234
01:13:16,709 --> 01:13:14,159
um

2235
01:13:18,630 --> 01:13:16,719
because we pretty well eliminated that

2236
01:13:20,310 --> 01:13:18,640
but but the real point simply was

2237
01:13:22,149 --> 01:13:20,320
anderson was telling the story one of

2238
01:13:23,430 --> 01:13:22,159
the other things he did was on the tape

2239
01:13:26,070 --> 01:13:23,440
that i had he talked about how the

2240
01:13:29,189 --> 01:13:26,080
aliens had these

2241
01:13:31,110 --> 01:13:29,199
light blue milky blue eyes

2242
01:13:33,350 --> 01:13:31,120
and of course we now know when you talk

2243
01:13:35,590 --> 01:13:33,360
about the grays it's the big black eyes

2244
01:13:38,149 --> 01:13:35,600
and he changed the idea the eyes to

2245
01:13:40,229 --> 01:13:38,159
black i discovered accidentally where he

2246
01:13:41,189 --> 01:13:40,239
got the idea it was milky blue

2247
01:13:48,149 --> 01:13:41,199
on

2248
01:13:50,630 --> 01:13:48,159
there's a cover of

2249
01:13:51,910 --> 01:13:50,640
the cover print of the um

2250
01:13:54,070 --> 01:13:51,920
alien

2251
01:13:55,350 --> 01:13:54,080
with milky blue eyes

2252
01:13:56,550 --> 01:13:55,360
that's where he got it once he

2253
01:13:58,470 --> 01:13:56,560
discovered it was something else you

2254
01:13:59,910 --> 01:13:58,480
changed it nice

2255
01:14:01,590 --> 01:13:59,920
and they were saying well we really said

2256
01:14:03,990 --> 01:14:01,600
murky blue and i said listen to the damn

2257
01:14:07,270 --> 01:14:04,000
tape he says milky blue it's not murky

2258
01:14:08,390 --> 01:14:07,280
blue so i mean the point simply is these

2259
01:14:10,790 --> 01:14:08,400
people

2260
01:14:12,550 --> 01:14:10,800
who come forward with these tales

2261
01:14:13,510 --> 01:14:12,560
it's important for us to investigate

2262
01:14:17,110 --> 01:14:13,520
that

2263
01:14:19,270 --> 01:14:17,120
to either verify what they say or expose

2264
01:14:20,790 --> 01:14:19,280
it for what it is right and so we're not

2265
01:14:22,470 --> 01:14:20,800
really wasting our time what we end up

2266
01:14:23,669 --> 01:14:22,480
wasting our time on is the people who

2267
01:14:24,870 --> 01:14:23,679
consist

2268
01:14:26,390 --> 01:14:24,880
insist

2269
01:14:28,310 --> 01:14:26,400
on believing

2270
01:14:29,910 --> 01:14:28,320
those tales

2271
01:14:32,070 --> 01:14:29,920
when it's clear they

2272
01:14:34,310 --> 01:14:32,080
weren't telling the truth anderson and

2273
01:14:36,229 --> 01:14:34,320
this is always kind of funny because

2274
01:14:37,590 --> 01:14:36,239
um anderson took him out to the site

2275
01:14:39,510 --> 01:14:37,600
where he was on the plains of san

2276
01:14:41,750 --> 01:14:39,520
augustine to see the craft

2277
01:14:44,229 --> 01:14:41,760
and i have a picture of don schmidt

2278
01:14:46,070 --> 01:14:44,239
standing on that site and it's the

2279
01:14:48,310 --> 01:14:46,080
plains of san agustin is a

2280
01:14:51,270 --> 01:14:48,320
dried up lake bed from it dried up like

2281
01:14:52,550 --> 01:14:51,280
2 000 years ago so it says big

2282
01:14:56,229 --> 01:14:52,560
plain

2283
01:14:57,750 --> 01:14:56,239
side of the picture you can see the

2284
01:14:58,790 --> 01:14:57,760
mountain a series of mountains over

2285
01:15:00,229 --> 01:14:58,800
there

2286
01:15:02,950 --> 01:15:00,239
turns out

2287
01:15:04,550 --> 01:15:02,960
in july of 1947 when anderson was

2288
01:15:06,390 --> 01:15:04,560
supposedly out there on the plains of

2289
01:15:08,790 --> 01:15:06,400
san agustin seeing the crash saucer

2290
01:15:11,510 --> 01:15:08,800
there was an archaeological expedition

2291
01:15:13,270 --> 01:15:11,520
out there and they were investigating

2292
01:15:15,030 --> 01:15:13,280
what they called the bat cave always

2293
01:15:17,110 --> 01:15:15,040
hesitate to say bat cave for the obvious

2294
01:15:18,630 --> 01:15:17,120
reason called a bat cave because bats

2295
01:15:22,229 --> 01:15:18,640
live in it

2296
01:15:26,070 --> 01:15:24,470
inhabited site

2297
01:15:27,510 --> 01:15:26,080
by the by the

2298
01:15:29,189 --> 01:15:27,520
the native peoples at the time they

2299
01:15:30,950 --> 01:15:29,199
would use this cave

2300
01:15:32,550 --> 01:15:30,960
for protection

2301
01:15:34,390 --> 01:15:32,560
and so

2302
01:15:35,430 --> 01:15:34,400
you can see the orientation of the

2303
01:15:37,350 --> 01:15:35,440
mountains

2304
01:15:39,189 --> 01:15:37,360
so i i was talking to stan friedman

2305
01:15:41,110 --> 01:15:39,199
about this one day

2306
01:15:43,830 --> 01:15:41,120
and i said you know we've got we've got

2307
01:15:45,350 --> 01:15:43,840
herbert dick now on the planes on july

2308
01:15:47,189 --> 01:15:45,360
1st because we

2309
01:15:49,110 --> 01:15:47,199
i think was art campbell found a letter

2310
01:15:50,950 --> 01:15:49,120
in the harvard archives

2311
01:15:53,270 --> 01:15:50,960
and herbert dick

2312
01:15:54,870 --> 01:15:53,280
in his letter was explaining how they

2313
01:15:56,390 --> 01:15:54,880
arrived there on the first of july so

2314
01:15:58,229 --> 01:15:56,400
now we knew he was there first of july

2315
01:16:00,070 --> 01:15:58,239
through the month of monday july the

2316
01:16:02,470 --> 01:16:00,080
whole month

2317
01:16:03,910 --> 01:16:02,480
and and stan says well we don't know how

2318
01:16:05,590 --> 01:16:03,920
deep they were in the cave and we don't

2319
01:16:07,669 --> 01:16:05,600
know the orientation of the cave and all

2320
01:16:10,149 --> 01:16:07,679
of this stuff and i said stan

2321
01:16:12,229 --> 01:16:10,159
the cave faces to the west we know where

2322
01:16:13,830 --> 01:16:12,239
it is the only place they could camp was

2323
01:16:15,510 --> 01:16:13,840
a hundred yards away from the mouth of

2324
01:16:17,590 --> 01:16:15,520
the cave because that was the only level

2325
01:16:18,630 --> 01:16:17,600
ground near it and they were working in

2326
01:16:27,030 --> 01:16:18,640
the

2327
01:16:29,430 --> 01:16:27,040
flashlights or lanterns we know of this

2328
01:16:31,590 --> 01:16:29,440
so had this thing crashed on the plains

2329
01:16:32,470 --> 01:16:31,600
of san agustin where anderson said it

2330
01:16:34,550 --> 01:16:32,480
did

2331
01:16:37,510 --> 01:16:34,560
they would have had a view of the whole

2332
01:16:38,709 --> 01:16:37,520
operation to remove it it makes it bogus

2333
01:16:40,709 --> 01:16:38,719
right and stan

2334
01:16:42,070 --> 01:16:40,719
stan just wouldn't listen stan was

2335
01:16:43,350 --> 01:16:42,080
convinced that anderson was telling the

2336
01:16:44,149 --> 01:16:43,360
truth

2337
01:16:45,990 --> 01:16:44,159
so

2338
01:16:48,550 --> 01:16:46,000
you know it's important to follow those

2339
01:16:51,350 --> 01:16:48,560
sort of leads to their very end very

2340
01:16:53,110 --> 01:16:51,360
well said kevin um where can people find

2341
01:16:55,430 --> 01:16:53,120
your work sir like i know that if you

2342
01:16:57,910 --> 01:16:55,440
just enter kevin randall books you'll

2343
01:16:59,590 --> 01:16:57,920
get a plethora of your works but is

2344
01:17:02,550 --> 01:16:59,600
there somewhere specific that somebody

2345
01:17:03,910 --> 01:17:02,560
can go to get all the information on you

2346
01:17:06,229 --> 01:17:03,920
i've done

2347
01:17:08,590 --> 01:17:06,239
1300 blog postings

2348
01:17:14,950 --> 01:17:10,630
www.kevinrandall all one word all

2349
01:17:20,070 --> 01:17:17,669
and there's links to some of the books

2350
01:17:22,310 --> 01:17:20,080
um so you click on the cover of the book

2351
01:17:24,070 --> 01:17:22,320
and it'll take you to that specific book

2352
01:17:25,510 --> 01:17:24,080
um you there's a search engine so if

2353
01:17:27,110 --> 01:17:25,520
you're interested in something you type

2354
01:17:29,030 --> 01:17:27,120
in a keyword it'll bring up the articles

2355
01:17:32,590 --> 01:17:29,040
i've done on that

2356
01:17:35,189 --> 01:17:33,910
www.vietnamgroundzero.blogspot.com so if

2357
01:17:37,350 --> 01:17:35,199
you're interested in some of my war

2358
01:17:39,510 --> 01:17:37,360
stories they're published there i did a

2359
01:17:41,030 --> 01:17:39,520
series of books again with bob cornett

2360
01:17:42,630 --> 01:17:41,040
called vietnam ground zero which is

2361
01:17:44,790 --> 01:17:42,640
where the name of the blog comes back

2362
01:17:46,630 --> 01:17:44,800
those have just been reissued

2363
01:17:49,350 --> 01:17:46,640
by an english publisher as a matter of

2364
01:17:51,830 --> 01:17:49,360
fact um so if you go to

2365
01:17:54,229 --> 01:17:51,840
amazon look up eric helm we wrote we

2366
01:17:56,149 --> 01:17:54,239
wrote them under the the uh the pen name

2367
01:17:57,910 --> 01:17:56,159
eric helm

2368
01:17:59,270 --> 01:17:57,920
so you can read you can read but these

2369
01:18:01,110 --> 01:17:59,280
these are all books these are fiction

2370
01:18:02,950 --> 01:18:01,120
books we made we made the stuff all

2371
01:18:04,630 --> 01:18:02,960
their stuff that's true in them that i

2372
01:18:06,310 --> 01:18:04,640
threw in one of the things we did and

2373
01:18:07,669 --> 01:18:06,320
they did not put them we had a glossary

2374
01:18:10,390 --> 01:18:07,679
in the book they did not put this in

2375
01:18:12,390 --> 01:18:10,400
there we had a glossary and it said in

2376
01:18:14,870 --> 01:18:12,400
the glossary it said horse

2377
01:18:16,229 --> 01:18:14,880
and then it said seabiscuit

2378
01:18:18,390 --> 01:18:16,239
and if you go to biscuit there was a

2379
01:18:20,790 --> 01:18:18,400
definition but the joke was see because

2380
01:18:23,030 --> 01:18:20,800
it was a horse it was a joke

2381
01:18:24,630 --> 01:18:23,040
and the the publisher of the new books i

2382
01:18:27,110 --> 01:18:24,640
guess they caught the joke and they took

2383
01:18:28,550 --> 01:18:27,120
that that reference out

2384
01:18:30,149 --> 01:18:28,560
which we always thought that was kind of

2385
01:18:32,070 --> 01:18:30,159
funny

2386
01:18:34,709 --> 01:18:32,080
science fiction i did under kevin randle

2387
01:18:37,110 --> 01:18:34,719
you can find that there amazon has them

2388
01:18:38,149 --> 01:18:37,120
some of the book stores carry them i do

2389
01:18:40,470 --> 01:18:38,159
um

2390
01:18:41,510 --> 01:18:40,480
a three-minute segment on coast to coast

2391
01:18:44,390 --> 01:18:41,520
am

2392
01:18:46,310 --> 01:18:44,400
on either thursday or friday nights um

2393
01:18:49,110 --> 01:18:46,320
i'm doing thursday night

2394
01:18:50,470 --> 01:18:49,120
it's about 12 20 my time which is

2395
01:18:53,510 --> 01:18:50,480
central time

2396
01:18:55,910 --> 01:18:53,520
but 10 20 on the west coast

2397
01:18:58,790 --> 01:18:55,920
uh it's just it's a little commentary

2398
01:19:00,790 --> 01:18:58,800
it's uh sightings that are going on uh

2399
01:19:02,950 --> 01:19:00,800
so you can hear me talk about that i

2400
01:19:04,070 --> 01:19:02,960
host a program on the exome broadcast

2401
01:19:07,350 --> 01:19:04,080
network

2402
01:19:10,950 --> 01:19:07,360
you go x zone x z b

2403
01:19:14,229 --> 01:19:10,960
and x so yeah xzbn for

2404
01:19:16,149 --> 01:19:14,239
exome broadcast network um

2405
01:19:18,229 --> 01:19:16,159
and type that in or just type in excel

2406
01:19:19,830 --> 01:19:18,239
broadcast network and it'll lead you to

2407
01:19:21,669 --> 01:19:19,840
their site

2408
01:19:22,870 --> 01:19:21,679
on my blog by the way i don't know i've

2409
01:19:25,030 --> 01:19:22,880
gone to all this trouble to send you

2410
01:19:27,590 --> 01:19:25,040
that site you can there's a audio player

2411
01:19:29,030 --> 01:19:27,600
on my site so you can listen to my

2412
01:19:30,070 --> 01:19:29,040
interview so you can hear my interview

2413
01:19:32,070 --> 01:19:30,080
with uh

2414
01:19:33,430 --> 01:19:32,080
if you if you wish you can go to a type

2415
01:19:36,470 --> 01:19:33,440
in

2416
01:19:37,990 --> 01:19:36,480
with jacques valle and my discussion

2417
01:19:39,430 --> 01:19:38,000
with him about the book

2418
01:19:41,669 --> 01:19:39,440
i was very disappointed in the book

2419
01:19:44,070 --> 01:19:41,679
chuck i'm sorry i just was

2420
01:19:45,910 --> 01:19:44,080
um and and uh you know i've interviewed

2421
01:19:47,750 --> 01:19:45,920
skeptics i've interviewed

2422
01:19:48,950 --> 01:19:47,760
true believers i

2423
01:19:51,270 --> 01:19:48,960
i had one

2424
01:19:52,950 --> 01:19:51,280
guest who had accused me on another

2425
01:19:54,310 --> 01:19:52,960
radio program of being a shill for the

2426
01:19:56,070 --> 01:19:54,320
air force

2427
01:19:58,070 --> 01:19:56,080
and put it in his own book so i invited

2428
01:20:00,070 --> 01:19:58,080
him on my program and my goal was to

2429
01:20:03,350 --> 01:20:00,080
make him so mad he'd hang up

2430
01:20:05,110 --> 01:20:03,360
and i succeeded in it

2431
01:20:06,870 --> 01:20:05,120
that's uh christopher mellon for those

2432
01:20:09,270 --> 01:20:06,880
uh i think for those of you who'd like

2433
01:20:10,870 --> 01:20:09,280
not christopher mellon um

2434
01:20:12,709 --> 01:20:10,880
sure can't remember his name now because

2435
01:20:14,870 --> 01:20:12,719
it was so important

2436
01:20:16,390 --> 01:20:14,880
but uh you know

2437
01:20:17,430 --> 01:20:16,400
he was talking about that i got him to

2438
01:20:19,270 --> 01:20:17,440
the point where he kept he would just

2439
01:20:20,470 --> 01:20:19,280
say no comment no comment no comment

2440
01:20:22,550 --> 01:20:20,480
thinking hey she's going to make the

2441
01:20:24,790 --> 01:20:22,560
accusation you you better have some

2442
01:20:25,830 --> 01:20:24,800
evidence to back it up

2443
01:20:27,590 --> 01:20:25,840
so

2444
01:20:29,750 --> 01:20:27,600
but you can listen to my radio programs

2445
01:20:32,229 --> 01:20:29,760
there i've been on multiple

2446
01:20:32,890 --> 01:20:32,239
documentaries uh somebody just uh

2447
01:20:34,070 --> 01:20:32,900
emailed me

2448
01:20:35,350 --> 01:20:34,080
[Music]

2449
01:20:36,870 --> 01:20:35,360
yesterday that they'd seen me on

2450
01:20:39,030 --> 01:20:36,880
unsolved mysteries i did unsolved

2451
01:20:41,430 --> 01:20:39,040
mysteries back in 1989 at

2452
01:20:44,070 --> 01:20:41,440
189 yeah 1989 i was on unsolved

2453
01:20:45,750 --> 01:20:44,080
mysteries talking about the roswell case

2454
01:20:47,590 --> 01:20:45,760
i knew about like two and a half minutes

2455
01:20:48,709 --> 01:20:47,600
on this segment on the unsolved

2456
01:20:50,709 --> 01:20:48,719
mysteries but i've done a lot of

2457
01:20:52,950 --> 01:20:50,719
documentaries you can see those

2458
01:20:55,030 --> 01:20:52,960
you can you can and this one cracks me

2459
01:20:57,189 --> 01:20:55,040
up too you can type in um

2460
01:20:59,669 --> 01:20:57,199
for those celebrity sites kevin randle

2461
01:21:01,750 --> 01:20:59,679
net worth you can look up my net worth

2462
01:21:03,270 --> 01:21:01,760
um you'll find that it's as low as a

2463
01:21:06,229 --> 01:21:03,280
hundred thousand dollars and as high as

2464
01:21:07,990 --> 01:21:06,239
135 million dollars

2465
01:21:10,790 --> 01:21:08,000
the truth is somewhere between two

2466
01:21:12,870 --> 01:21:10,800
numbers a good range yeah

2467
01:21:14,790 --> 01:21:12,880
i wish it was 135 million dollars

2468
01:21:16,950 --> 01:21:14,800
because

2469
01:21:19,750 --> 01:21:16,960
i'd be i would be on that bravo program

2470
01:21:22,790 --> 01:21:21,350
for two or three days for two hundred

2471
01:21:24,709 --> 01:21:22,800
thousand dollars whatever it is if i had

2472
01:21:26,229 --> 01:21:24,719
135 million dollars to tell you that

2473
01:21:27,510 --> 01:21:26,239
right now

2474
01:21:29,030 --> 01:21:27,520
so you know type my name into the

2475
01:21:30,629 --> 01:21:29,040
internet you can find a lot of stuff

2476
01:21:31,830 --> 01:21:30,639
that i've done and it links to other

2477
01:21:33,430 --> 01:21:31,840
things that i've done in other places

2478
01:21:35,669 --> 01:21:33,440
i've done other other radio programs

2479
01:21:38,550 --> 01:21:35,679
i've done and things like that but the

2480
01:21:41,110 --> 01:21:38,560
important thing is um the books

2481
01:21:43,030 --> 01:21:41,120
um understanding roswell is the latest i

2482
01:21:44,709 --> 01:21:43,040
did the level land book which came out a

2483
01:21:46,950 --> 01:21:44,719
little bit before that i did one on

2484
01:21:49,110 --> 01:21:46,960
socorro called encounters in the desert

2485
01:21:51,750 --> 01:21:49,120
which i think is important i did one

2486
01:21:53,910 --> 01:21:51,760
called ufos in the deep state one of the

2487
01:21:56,709 --> 01:21:53,920
questions i'm usually asked is why

2488
01:21:58,709 --> 01:21:56,719
doesn't the government come forward and

2489
01:22:01,030 --> 01:21:58,719
and admit they

2490
01:22:02,790 --> 01:22:01,040
the ufos are extraterrestrial

2491
01:22:04,550 --> 01:22:02,800
and in that book i explain what i think

2492
01:22:06,390 --> 01:22:04,560
the answer is

2493
01:22:08,870 --> 01:22:06,400
and it has to do with retaining power

2494
01:22:10,629 --> 01:22:08,880
and retaining their financial

2495
01:22:11,590 --> 01:22:10,639
influences and things like that it's the

2496
01:22:13,430 --> 01:22:11,600
government

2497
01:22:14,709 --> 01:22:13,440
and it's not the it's not the elected

2498
01:22:17,669 --> 01:22:14,719
officials

2499
01:22:19,430 --> 01:22:17,679
it's the bureaucrats underneath the

2500
01:22:20,629 --> 01:22:19,440
the real the employees like the

2501
01:22:22,470 --> 01:22:20,639
secretary of state it's the under

2502
01:22:24,070 --> 01:22:22,480
secretary of the states that are they go

2503
01:22:25,669 --> 01:22:24,080
from administration to administration

2504
01:22:27,830 --> 01:22:25,679
who are retaining the power there's an

2505
01:22:28,629 --> 01:22:27,840
interesting story about why

2506
01:22:30,629 --> 01:22:28,639
uh

2507
01:22:32,709 --> 01:22:30,639
about jimmy carter trying to get the

2508
01:22:34,870 --> 01:22:32,719
information about ufos and

2509
01:22:36,629 --> 01:22:34,880
being denied by the

2510
01:22:38,550 --> 01:22:36,639
director of the cia something i thought

2511
01:22:40,629 --> 01:22:38,560
would never happen and how that that is

2512
01:22:41,750 --> 01:22:40,639
all manipulated so that's ufos in the

2513
01:22:43,110 --> 01:22:41,760
deep state

2514
01:22:45,830 --> 01:22:43,120
but you just go down the list of the

2515
01:22:47,189 --> 01:22:45,840
books if you uh enjoy the book

2516
01:22:49,110 --> 01:22:47,199
and you just want to give it a four or

2517
01:22:51,430 --> 01:22:49,120
five star rating hey thanks appreciate

2518
01:22:53,990 --> 01:22:51,440
it if you want to give it one star i

2519
01:22:56,870 --> 01:22:54,000
would appreciate you telling me why

2520
01:22:59,110 --> 01:22:56,880
because sometimes it's not fair the um

2521
01:23:01,430 --> 01:22:59,120
i think the is it the roswell book

2522
01:23:02,550 --> 01:23:01,440
has a one star rating and the got guy

2523
01:23:05,189 --> 01:23:02,560
was mad

2524
01:23:07,510 --> 01:23:05,199
because when the book arrived

2525
01:23:09,669 --> 01:23:07,520
they it hadn't been

2526
01:23:11,270 --> 01:23:09,679
properly created and the pages were

2527
01:23:13,590 --> 01:23:11,280
falling out

2528
01:23:15,669 --> 01:23:13,600
it's not my fault pal

2529
01:23:17,590 --> 01:23:15,679
that's and it's not the publisher fault

2530
01:23:19,030 --> 01:23:17,600
it turns out it turns out it's amazon's

2531
01:23:20,470 --> 01:23:19,040
fault because it's a print-on-demand

2532
01:23:23,430 --> 01:23:20,480
book but it's not our fault so that's

2533
01:23:25,270 --> 01:23:23,440
another that's an unfair rating so uh if

2534
01:23:27,189 --> 01:23:25,280
you've read the book and you if you read

2535
01:23:28,470 --> 01:23:27,199
the book and you didn't like it and you

2536
01:23:30,310 --> 01:23:28,480
want to give one star and you have

2537
01:23:32,790 --> 01:23:30,320
reasons for it other than the way it

2538
01:23:35,030 --> 01:23:32,800
arrived or the condition

2539
01:23:37,110 --> 01:23:35,040
i would appreciate knowing that

2540
01:23:39,510 --> 01:23:37,120
because that will help me

2541
01:23:41,350 --> 01:23:39,520
in the next project to

2542
01:23:42,310 --> 01:23:41,360
correct that error if i've made that

2543
01:23:44,229 --> 01:23:42,320
error

2544
01:23:45,430 --> 01:23:44,239
you know uh putting in the footnotes or

2545
01:23:46,950 --> 01:23:45,440
things like

2546
01:23:49,990 --> 01:23:46,960
in the level and book there's a

2547
01:23:51,990 --> 01:23:50,000
reference sort of a semi when you do a

2548
01:23:53,430 --> 01:23:52,000
phd the way they put the footnotes in

2549
01:23:55,510 --> 01:23:53,440
it's not a footnote at the bottom of the

2550
01:23:56,790 --> 01:23:55,520
page but it's the author's name and the

2551
01:23:59,189 --> 01:23:56,800
date

2552
01:24:01,510 --> 01:23:59,199
and uh then you go to the bibliography

2553
01:24:03,270 --> 01:24:01,520
and you look it up that way

2554
01:24:06,070 --> 01:24:03,280
uh to see where the information came

2555
01:24:08,390 --> 01:24:06,080
from but uh in this in in the level land

2556
01:24:09,510 --> 01:24:08,400
book it's all right there

2557
01:24:11,430 --> 01:24:09,520
um

2558
01:24:13,669 --> 01:24:11,440
in that kind of a notation as opposed to

2559
01:24:16,310 --> 01:24:13,679
it uh roswell in the 21st century which

2560
01:24:17,910 --> 01:24:16,320
was another deep dive into oh i hate

2561
01:24:20,390 --> 01:24:17,920
that term another

2562
01:24:22,070 --> 01:24:20,400
look at the roswell case it's got like

2563
01:24:23,750 --> 01:24:22,080
1100 footnotes in it and they're at the

2564
01:24:25,830 --> 01:24:23,760
bottom of the page so you have to flip

2565
01:24:27,590 --> 01:24:25,840
back and forth but the books are all

2566
01:24:28,390 --> 01:24:27,600
there and as i say if you've enjoyed the

2567
01:24:29,910 --> 01:24:28,400
book

2568
01:24:31,590 --> 01:24:29,920
please give it a nice rating if you

2569
01:24:33,910 --> 01:24:31,600
didn't enjoy the book and you have a

2570
01:24:35,750 --> 01:24:33,920
legitimate reason for not i would i

2571
01:24:37,750 --> 01:24:35,760
would appreciate knowing that one of the

2572
01:24:39,910 --> 01:24:37,760
guys wrote he was he was mad because the

2573
01:24:41,830 --> 01:24:39,920
information in the um

2574
01:24:43,830 --> 01:24:41,840
the socorro book

2575
01:24:46,149 --> 01:24:43,840
encounters in the desert he said this is

2576
01:24:47,510 --> 01:24:46,159
information you could find on the

2577
01:24:48,950 --> 01:24:47,520
information you can find on the internet

2578
01:24:50,149 --> 01:24:48,960
i'm thinking no because i've got some

2579
01:24:51,830 --> 01:24:50,159
information in there it came from the

2580
01:24:53,750 --> 01:24:51,840
witnesses it isn't published anywhere

2581
01:24:56,830 --> 01:24:53,760
else one of them is deals with the

2582
01:24:59,669 --> 01:24:56,840
symbol and the guy who draw drew the

2583
01:25:01,750 --> 01:24:59,679
um the craft that

2584
01:25:04,950 --> 01:25:01,760
lonnie zamora saw

2585
01:25:06,470 --> 01:25:04,960
uh back in 1964 and i've got an

2586
01:25:08,149 --> 01:25:06,480
interview with him and that's not on the

2587
01:25:10,629 --> 01:25:08,159
internet so you know not all the

2588
01:25:12,470 --> 01:25:10,639
information is there but you know what i

2589
01:25:13,590 --> 01:25:12,480
say you write in the book well the

2590
01:25:15,510 --> 01:25:13,600
information isn't in the internet and

2591
01:25:16,629 --> 01:25:15,520
here's what i know and you know

2592
01:25:19,110 --> 01:25:16,639
but a lot of the information is

2593
01:25:21,110 --> 01:25:19,120
available on the internet but

2594
01:25:22,870 --> 01:25:21,120
and and these really important cases you

2595
01:25:24,310 --> 01:25:22,880
have to you have to read carefully in

2596
01:25:26,149 --> 01:25:24,320
the book because there are always

2597
01:25:27,910 --> 01:25:26,159
nuggets in there that have not been pub

2598
01:25:29,750 --> 01:25:27,920
well publicized you know i sometimes

2599
01:25:32,070 --> 01:25:29,760
hesitate to mention them because giving

2600
01:25:33,430 --> 01:25:32,080
away the store there but anyway

2601
01:25:34,629 --> 01:25:33,440
that's a long-winded way of getting

2602
01:25:36,709 --> 01:25:34,639
people to look at the books and rate

2603
01:25:38,229 --> 01:25:36,719
them for crying

2604
01:25:39,910 --> 01:25:38,239
all right louie do you have any final

2605
01:25:42,390 --> 01:25:39,920
questions for our guest today no i just

2606
01:25:44,390 --> 01:25:42,400
want to um extend a very warm thanks to

2607
01:25:46,149 --> 01:25:44,400
kevin randle for coming on here you're a

2608
01:25:48,390 --> 01:25:46,159
wealth of information we could chat with

2609
01:25:50,070 --> 01:25:48,400
you for hours and hours on end and maybe

2610
01:25:51,590 --> 01:25:50,080
we'll have to do a part two of this just

2611
01:25:54,310 --> 01:25:51,600
to get in some of the other questions we

2612
01:25:56,550 --> 01:25:54,320
didn't get in today but essentially uh

2613
01:25:58,550 --> 01:25:56,560
yeah you're a gift to the body um you

2614
01:26:00,870 --> 01:25:58,560
know you've created this momentum for

2615
01:26:03,350 --> 01:26:00,880
decades and decades younger generation

2616
01:26:05,510 --> 01:26:03,360
like us now carries that torch and with

2617
01:26:06,950 --> 01:26:05,520
somebody such as yourself being that

2618
01:26:08,870 --> 01:26:06,960
compass you know you're weeding through

2619
01:26:10,629 --> 01:26:08,880
the nonsense and it's kind of like what

2620
01:26:12,550 --> 01:26:10,639
our purpose of the show is exactly we

2621
01:26:14,229 --> 01:26:12,560
got all your books we know who you are

2622
01:26:15,990 --> 01:26:14,239
we want to basically give our audience

2623
01:26:18,470 --> 01:26:16,000
both sides let them make their own

2624
01:26:20,790 --> 01:26:18,480
opinion um but again we're providing

2625
01:26:22,550 --> 01:26:20,800
like good information to form an opinion

2626
01:26:24,470 --> 01:26:22,560
based on and there's a lot of junk out

2627
01:26:26,390 --> 01:26:24,480
there it's a tsunami of

2628
01:26:28,629 --> 01:26:26,400
articles and stuff to read and most of

2629
01:26:30,149 --> 01:26:28,639
it is nonsense but uh thanks to people

2630
01:26:32,390 --> 01:26:30,159
like yourself that actually keep it on

2631
01:26:34,229 --> 01:26:32,400
point and uh make this interesting for

2632
01:26:36,070 --> 01:26:34,239
us to do so thanks so much for being on

2633
01:26:37,750 --> 01:26:36,080
our show well i appreciate that i would

2634
01:26:39,590 --> 01:26:37,760
like like to make one thing what i try

2635
01:26:40,629 --> 01:26:39,600
to do in the books is not attack the

2636
01:26:42,390 --> 01:26:40,639
person

2637
01:26:44,629 --> 01:26:42,400
but attack the information except for

2638
01:26:46,550 --> 01:26:44,639
gerald anderson

2639
01:26:48,470 --> 01:26:46,560
and uh christopher montgomery is the guy

2640
01:26:49,830 --> 01:26:48,480
who uh you want to want to hear the guy

2641
01:26:51,430 --> 01:26:49,840
hang up on me it's christopher

2642
01:26:52,470 --> 01:26:51,440
montgomery

2643
01:26:53,990 --> 01:26:52,480
because

2644
01:26:55,990 --> 01:26:54,000
of the attack on me it was kind of a

2645
01:26:57,510 --> 01:26:56,000
response to that but uh i appreciate

2646
01:26:59,510 --> 01:26:57,520
your kind words and of course i'll be

2647
01:27:08,149 --> 01:26:59,520
delighted to come back when uh

2648
01:27:08,159 --> 01:27:11,950
so